Show Transcript

Today, I'm gonna introduce you to somebody who was face to face with his own mortality.

It was 2020 height of the pandemic in Lee Crompton.

He was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

They said that he had at most six months to live.

This meant that he wouldn't even get to see his child's first birthday.

Now, let me flip the script, because that all sounds really sad, and it is.

But then you meet Lee Crompton.

Lee has a sense of humor on a dark subject that I have never heard before.

I have never laughed in an interview as much as I did in this one.

I was not expecting it whatsoever.

And that's what makes today's episode so amazing.

So, my friend, if you could use a laugh, if you could be reminded about how precious life is, all with this amazing sense of humor brought to us by Lee Crompton.

Well, my friend, you just found your place to be.

I welcome you to what is episode 349.

I hope you enjoy.

Yo, are you ready to flip the script on life?

Cause those bad days, they're just doors to better days.

And that's exactly what we do here at Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.

Your host, Kevin Lowe, he's been flipping the script on his own life, turning over 20 years of being completely blind into to straight up inspiration, motivation, and encouragement just for you.

So kick back, relax, and let me introduce you to your host, Kevin Lowe.

Welcome back to the podcast.

This is, of course, your host, Kevin Lowe, and today I have the pleasure of being in the studio with none other than Lee Crompton.

Lee, welcome to the podcast, man.

Thank you very much for having me, Kevin.

It's been.

Yeah, it's been a while, but thoroughly looking forward to this.

Absolutely.

Me too, man.

Well, I figured the best place for us to start today is I would love for you to kind of give me a snapshot look at life before the diagnosis.

Obviously, that's a big part of our conversation today.

But before any of that came up, what was life looking like for you?

To put it into context, it was September 2020 when I was diagnosed.

So life before that, starting from sort of the beginning of 2020, my youngest daughter was born in the January of 2020.

Then we went down, in we went.

So that was good.

That's a positive.

Although we were starting to get stories of this mysterious disease that was sweeping the world.

And then in, I think it was the March, we went into lockdown.

Yes.

So family life changed.

From newborn baby in January to all living under the same roof.

Nobody was going to Nursery.

Nobody was going to school.

My wife was on maternity leave.

I was working from home.

And, yeah, it was.

We were all.

Yeah, like very many other families, living under.

Living on top of each other and not being able to go anywhere.

Exactly.

Such.

Such memorable times, huh?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It seems weird now.

It is.

Just looking back on that and going, well, that was, you know, because I go to.

I'm a Bournemouth fan, so I follow the football or soccer, as you would.

As you would say.

And it just seems weird going to a stadium and thinking there was a time when all of this was played behind closed doors.

Yes, absolutely.

And that was the world we lived in.

Exactly.

And what's crazy is that, I mean, it seems like in a way, that was a really long time ago and it really wasn't.

It does, yeah.

Yeah.

Well, so kind of into the context of our real conversation today, I guess my next question would be, during this time, what would first alert you that maybe something wasn't quite right with you, with your body?

Well, I always thought I had raised glands.

I always seemed to have a swollen neck, and I'd always blamed it on the kids.

So, yeah, to put it into concert.

I had a newborn baby and my eldest was three at the time, so they were always coming home from nursery with snotty noses and what have you.

So I blamed it on them.

Unfortunately, that.

That was why I was always a bit, kind of raised glands and a bit bunged up or what have you.

And then, of course, like I said, we went into lockdown and nobody was going anywhere.

We weren't seeing anybody.

And I thought, why does my neck still feel sort of puffy?

Went to the doctors, which was difficult because you couldn't really see the doctor in those days because nobody wanted to go and venture out, particularly not to medical facilities.

And so, anyway, long story short, they took a biopsy of this lump or puffiness, which came back inconclusive.

Took an ultrasound, they said, yeah, it looks.

Looks okay.

You have got a lump there, but it looks as though it's not a problem.

What do you want to do?

And they said, well, you got your options.

I said, what are my options?

The options are we could leave it and just keep an eye on it because it looks okay.

We could take another biopsy.

Although if this one's come back inconclusive, the chances are the other one will come back inconclusive.

Or we could go straight to surgery.

And I was okay.

For a man who often will check with his wife what flavor of pizza she wants from the corner Shop, just to double check.

For whatever reason, I decided to say, well, I'll just get a surgery.

And he said, are you sure that he's a bit drastic?

And I suppose surely, because I think at that point they measured, it was like 7cm long, if you imagine, up the way, in my throat, in my neck.

Okay.

And I said, well, surely it's only going to get bigger, isn't it?

And they said, well, probably, yeah.

I said, well, let's just take it out then, because, you know, it's going to be more of a pain to get out at a later date.

And they went, well, if you're sure.

And Covid, at that time, nobody was going to hospital.

So they said we could get you in quite quickly because no one wants to go to hospital.

And that's probably what saved me.

So went and had the first operation.

And I won't lie, Kevin, it was other than obviously having my throat slit.

It was quite pleasurable at the time at home.

I wasn't, you know, we couldn't go anywhere.

We were sort of going stir crazy.

The kids weren't sleeping.

We weren't getting a full night's sleep because we had a newborn baby.

And actually going into hospital and lying in the bed in the peace and quiet and having someone bring your food to your bed and just eating it there and listening to podcasts and watching the television was actually quite nice.

Other than the.

Other than the stitches, have you, have you ever seen the film Highlander?

No, I haven't, no.

Well, for those who have seen the film the Highlander, there's the Kurgan and he's got like his neck stapled together with safety pins.

And that was kind of what I was.

But other than that, you know, the pudding was very nice and whatever, and the guy.

So I had the operation and the doctor came around, surgeon came around and he said, yep.

He says it was.

Excuse my French.

He said it was a big bugger.

He said it was 7 centimeters long.

He said, but I've had it in the palm of my hand and there's a few dense bits we probably need to look under the microscope, but nothing to worry about.

Okay, fine.

So I went home to recuperate.

And I mean, I'm making light of this, but it was a fairly big operation when you have in your.

You know.

And that was that.

We'll be in touch.

And three weeks went by and I got a phone call.

Can you come in for the results?

Which in hindsight I should have realized was an oddity because they didn't really want you going to hospital unless it was absolutely necessary.

And the hospital that I had the operation in was about 45 minutes from here.

So my wife said, would you want me to come as well?

And I said, no.

I said, absolutely pointless.

I said, one, we've got to get the two kids in their car seats and over to the hospital, which is just going to be a pain.

Two, they probably won't let you in anyway because you weren't allowed to go in with anybody.

And three, if it had been because my dad unfortunately passed away when he was in his mid-50s with bowel cancer and when he had his diagnosis or when he had his test, they were straight back the following day.

You need to come in, it's been three weeks.

I said, if there's anything serious, they would have let me know by now.

So I went into the lion's den on my Todd and yeah, I knew as soon as I walked into this room that something was up.

There was that you just tell by the body language and the doer look on there as a good Scottish word, a doer, the doer expression on their faces.

And there was a middle aged woman and I'm thinking, why is she here?

Because she doesn't look like a student nurse and it turns out she's the macmillan.

So over here, macmillan is the cancer charity.

And yeah, I just remember, I don't remember much of that conversation other than him saying, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.

And he kept shaking his head and said, you've got a young family, haven't you?

I was like, yeah, yeah, sorry, what's happened?

So at that point they didn't give me time scales, but they said, yeah, you've got anaplastic thyroid cancer.

Here's a leaflet, here's a booklet.

There's nothing about anaplastic.

It's so rare what you've got that there's no.

I don't know why I'm laughing.

It's so rare that what you've got that there's no information about it in there.

There's three main types of thyroid cancer which if you get that, they're quite curable.

I think there's a 90% success rate other than what I had, which was anaplastic thyroid cancer, which in the UK there's about 70 cases a year.

It's really rare, it's really aggressive.

At that point they didn't give me time scales, but yeah, Glasgow.

So I live near Loch Lomond.

I think we mentioned before when I Was chatting to you before.

And so, yeah, Glasgow's the nearest sort of main hospital.

They'll be in touch.

And that was that.

So I went, we'll do a CT scan now.

So I'm waiting.

You couldn't get a signal in the hospital.

So I'm waiting, thinking, Gemma, as my wife, Gemma is going to know something is up.

Because I was in for the 9 o'clock appointment in the morning, thinking, I'm going to go in.

They're going to go, yeah, absolutely fine, thank you very much, go away.

And I'm going to be back in the car.

Back in the car, up for 10 past nine and home for sort of 10 o'clock.

Well, it's now 10 o'clock and I'm waiting to have a CT scan and I can't.

I haven't contacted her.

I thought, she's going to know, she's going to know.

So, yeah, I ended up having to ring her from the car park.

And my mom, who's down in dorset, she lives 450 miles away, and say, this isn't good news.

And I knew it was bad, but I didn't really know how bad because they said, well, you know, Glasgow, be in touch.

And.

And that was where it was kind of left.

Have a CT scan and await further instruction.

Wow.

How fast life can change, you know?

Wow.

So talk to me.

I guess I'm curious to know, I mean, what happens next?

Well, yeah, I got the phone call the next day, you need to come in this afternoon to Glasgow.

And I remember we were.

I think we were taking the kids out.

I think you were allowed in the park in those days for half an hour.

So we got the phone call, can you come in this afternoon?

And they gave me the results of the CT scan and they said, look again.

Very grave faces.

The CT scans come back clear.

Oh, that's.

That's good use, isn't it?

And they went, no, not really.

And I didn't realize that a CT scan, I think, again, don't quote me on this, but a CT scan can only pick up things bigger than 2 millimeters, I think.

Okay.

And they said it's evidence that it's been trying to get into your bloodstream.

So we predict that you're riddled with it already.

It's.

It's.

You've got.

And you've got four to six months.

Six months.

The exact words were, six months would be a positive outcome.

And I remember looking at my wife's eyes because again, we're.

We're wearing.

We're all wearing face masks and just the sort of terror, the dread in her eyes.

And then they said, look, we need to get you in for this operation.

And yeah, you're going to have to have a COVID test.

But quite frankly, it doesn't matter if you've got Covid.

I'll just have to get my team to take extra precautions because you need to come in on Monday and we need to get this operation done.

And I'm saying, well, that's right.

Okay, so there is a chance that I could be, you know, for want of a better expression, cured.

And they said, no, no.

What happens with this?

Like I say, it's like wildfire.

And it.

And it.

It develops very quickly.

And so the first operation was to take out the one side of my thyroid that had this lump on.

So I still had the other side of my thyroid at that point in still in my neck.

And what they said was, it because it expands so rapidly, that could impact on your breathing, it could impact on your swallowing, and it makes the end pretty nasty.

So, yeah, that second operation was not to save me, but just to make the end less grim, which is, again, mentally, that's quite a leap to go.

Right, okay.

Cause I'm having literally the same operation and it wasn't quite as.

Like I say, the first time I was like, I was just quite nice to have a couple nights away from the kids and a decent night sleep.

The second operation, three weeks later, yeah, wasn't quite as.

I wasn't looking forward to it as much.

Not that I was looking forward to the first one, but you know what I mean, I'm not trying to.

Like I say, I'm trying to make light of it as best I can.

But.

So, yeah, that was.

That was the second operation I had.

And it was.

It was awful because I was in a different hospital, which is much busier.

You're on the 12th floor.

Things didn't go because obviously they go in the same scar, literally, that they've just been in three weeks ago.

So the first one hadn't really healed properly.

So there was.

I mean, that felt like I've got sort of.

Well, first of all, you go into an operation that, you know is not going to save you.

Second of all, it was more painful.

I found it really.

You had like blood clots on the chest where they're going in again.

And it was like, say, swallowing barbed wire.

And it wasn't as plain sailing as the first one.

So, of course, I've only got.

That's my benchmark so I'm now going, well, something's gone wrong.

And of course I'm on high alert anyway.

I'm very, very anxious.

I'm very, very agitated because I've been told you've got four to six months to live.

So, like I say, when I was told that, I thought, right, well, I probably might get to see Erin's first birthday in January, but I'm probably not going to get to see Izzy's fourth birthday in March.

And that was just heartbreaking.

But went in for the second operation and, yeah, it was just.

It was awful.

And I remember I write scripts, Kevin.

I don't know if I mentioned that before, but, yeah, I work in construction, but I write.

I write TV scripts and dark comedies.

And this is definitely going.

This moment is definitely going in there somewhere.

Well, two moments, actually.

I'll tell you.

I'll tell you two moments, because I've actually.

I was actually at the hospital this morning, which we'll come on to, but the guy comes around, the nurse comes around with the clipboard and says, right, Mr.

Crumpton, could you tell me on a scale of naught to 10, what your pain is?

He said, naught being, like, no pain at all, and 10 being excruciating.

And I'm there.

I'm in the depths of despair.

I've been told I've got, like, months to live.

I feel awful.

Like I said, I can't swallow properly.

Every time I, like, cough or whatever, it's convulsions, and I'm like, I really don't feel very well at all.

I don't know, I think I'm probably.

Probably at least a seven.

And he looks me up and down.

I went, I'll put you down as a three.

I walked off.

So, yeah, there's looking back, and at the time, I'm mortified because I'm thinking, I'm making a big fuss here.

So I didn't ring that all, you know, that you have to ring the bell at night if you want anyone to come to your aid or, you know, plump your pillows up or just get you a glass of water, whatever.

I didn't touch it because I'm like, I'm obviously making too much of a fuss and I don't want to be a burden on anybody.

So I lay there, like, just going, well, you know, if I don't wake up in the morning, so be it.

I'll go off on Miss Sleep.

And, you know.

And it's a reminder of another story this morning, which is.

So I When we were chatting earlier, it was four years yesterday, so spoiler alert, yes, I'm still here.

Four years later, I'm still, I'm still here.

And I went for my oncology appointment this morning at the same hospital that where I first was, was diagnosed, told the timescales and it reminds me and have a little wry, little smile to myself now, as does my wife when she comes with me in that, that first morning that when they said, you're going to Glasgow in the morning and we got the phone call to go in.

We arrived at the hospital with our face masks on, didn't know where we were going.

It was a new hospital to us.

So we wandered in.

Obviously we've been punched in the gut with the news that I'm going to die quite soon.

And we're wandering around and there's a guy because again, we're in the depths of COVID There's a guy at like a fold away table at the entrance with all the hand gel on and you gotta squirt your hands before you go in and blah, blah, blah.

And he can see that we're kind of like a bit discombobulated and don't know what we're doing.

And he says, he looks at my wife up and down and says, oh, can I help you?

Are you looking for the maternity ward?

And I'm like, no, no, we're looking for ear, nose and throat.

Ent.

And he went, oh, I'm ever so sorry.

So, yeah, I mean, talk about kicking people when they're down.

Not only, as you've been told, your husband's not got long to live, but then one of the porters says that he could probably do with losing a few pounds as well.

So admittedly she had not long had Erin.

But yeah, it was that moment of, no, no, we're not here for the pregnancy.

Maternity ward.

Yeah, so, yeah, so that was the second.

Sorry, going back, I'm flipping between timescales here.

Had the second operation, came out and was recovering from that and I remember I went to see Professor Reid and he said, I think we might have been a bit overly cautious about these timescales.

I'm like, okay.

I mean, I think six months is probably a bit pessimistic.

Okay, good, yeah.

What are you telling me?

I think it's probably going to be 12 months.

And I remember coming out of there, punching the air like I just won the lottery because I'm like, this is amazing.

I get to see another, you know, my daughter's grow up for another Six months and run a punch in the air.

And it was only like a couple of days later I went, hang on a minute, the guy's still telling me I've got 12 months to live.

That's rubbish.

But it was twice as long as I thought I was going to get.

So, you know, it's moments like that when you go, that's just.

Yeah, I was buzzing that he told me I've got 12 months to live.

Which is just bizarre.

Wow.

Yeah, the whole thing is bizarre.

The whole thing is truly.

And I guess the question that I wanna ask is we obviously know how this whole thing starts.

We see where you are, I've given away the ending.

No, no, no, no, it's fine.

It's totally fine.

Because obviously anybody's like, wait, the math doesn't add up here.

The guy's talking to us.

But so I guess the question I am so anxious to find out is after all the hospital stuff is over with and you go back home, whether it was six months or a year, how do you even mentally handle that and even just keep living life?

It's difficult because I kept going to obviously oncology appointments every.

It was every month to start with, then every three months and now it's every six months.

But I should say that, you know, anaplastic thyroid cancer is, I think got.

95% of people are dead within 12 months.

I think there's a handful of people that are lasting three to five years, but they're on cutting edge drugs.

And I remember them saying at the time, do not Google anything to do with anaplastic thyroid cancer.

Because there is nothing.

You won't find anything good to talk about, you know, to read, rather there's no good news.

But no, you're right.

When you.

So you come out of that and you're always kind of looking over your shoulder because you've survived six months and go, right, well, that's the six months.

Are we good?

Well, I mean, we'll wait till 12 months.

And when it got to 12 months, I mean, if we could get to 18 months and he still said the same to me today, I mean, if we can get to five years seems to be like the benchmark.

So I've kind of given up because they just keep kicking the can down the road.

But I would say for the first, it's difficult on a couple of levels because when you've got to six months or 12 months and it looks like there's a chance that you might have dodged a bullet, everybody wants to know you Know the good luck story.

They, they don't necessarily want to talk to you when you're.

Or make eye contact.

It was almost like being a homeless person on the street.

No one really wants to take.

Make eye contact with you because what do you say to the.

What do you say to the guy who's been given sort of four months to live?

You're right.

No, not really.

No, I've been given months to live.

So nobody kind of engages with you, but the minute it looks like you might be okay, people are going, it must be great.

Must be great news that you've dodged this bullet.

And they're happy to not talk about it.

But you can change the subject.

They can deal with that because people don't want to talk about the rubbish stuff.

I was going to swear then, but I stopped myself.

Kevin, so you've got people who've gone, oh, that's right, yeah, you've.

You've turned a corner.

And because they want to parcel it up in that sort of palatable scenario, if you like.

Whereas.

And it is, I mean, that you're.

There's, there's a, there's a difficult paradox in that.

Obviously I'm happy that I'm still here, but I'm always kind of got one eye looking over my shoulder in terms of what am I really okay?

Or is this going to come back and bite me on the bum?

Or.

And then there's the whole feeling guilty because I should be punching the air.

And there's.

Again, it goes into mental health.

But whether you say you should be doing something and you could be doing something or whatever, you know, the voices that you tell yourself.

So I should be punching the air because this is what you wanted, right?

You wanted to see your kids grow up and you wanted that bit of extra time.

But the reality is for someone to tell me, and I think I mentioned this before when I was in it, I almost had like a.

I had these lists of tasks I needed to do, so I needed to make sure that the boiler was fixed.

I needed to make sure I had, you know, I gave my wife powers of attorney.

We've set up wills, we've set up, you know, Christmas presents and birthday presents for the kids for the next 10 years or the, you know, the years that I'm not going to be there to do them myself.

And all this kind of practical stuff, which again, is a whole, that's a whole conversation itself, is, you know, me and my wife went through ivf.

We're going off various tangents.

Kevin.

I Do apologize.

But me and my wife have had IVF treatment, which I thought was a very galvanizing process because you're aiming towards the same goal and you're in it together.

Whereas I found that cancer was actually very divisive.

Because I'm thinking, right, what do I need to do in the next six months to make sure that, you know, my family provided for and as much as, as much as I humanly possibly can, that things are dealt with?

And from my wife's perspective, she's like, what on earth am I going to do in six months time in terms of paying the mortgage and being a single parent with two kids who want their dad?

And so she's kind of thinking about the aftermath.

And I'm going, well, no, no, what about the here and now?

We need to get XYZ done before I pop the clogs.

And it's strange that we'll come onto the podcast that I do, but it'd be interesting to get her taken and do an episode with.

With her in terms of the other side of the fence.

Because ultimately.

Yes, sorry, coming back to your original question, yes, it's great that I dodged the bullet, but ultimately you're saying, oh, that thing.

Yes.

I know you've looked inside Pandora's box and sort of been faced with your own mortality, but if you wouldn't mind just shutting the lid and if you could go back to work on Monday morning and just pretend none of that happened, that would be great.

And it's impossible to do that.

Yeah, you know, it's very difficult to just switch that off and go, oh, well, great, I've dodged that bullet.

I'm going to live every moment like it's my last.

And I know there are people who, you know, have had these, you know, life changing experiences and have turned it into a positive.

And I found that really difficult to do because, you know, and there's the guilt of, well, but you've done the thing that you wanted to do.

You, you know, but the Girls are now 4 and 7.

But at the same time.

Yeah.

That.

The psychology of mentally preparing for your own demise and then not demising, I don't know if demising is even a word, but I've used it now, so it's fine.

Yeah, it's.

Yeah, it's.

It's odd, I think, is the best way I can describe it.

And there's certain things, just while I remember this thing, there's certain things that.

So, so my birthday's in December, so when I had my.

Which I think.

Forget now.

I think it would have been my 47th birthday.

I thought, this is gonna be.

This is gonna be a killer because I'm gonna be.

This is gonna be my last birthday I'll ever going to have.

And actually, it was fine.

Mentally, I mean.

Yeah.

And then.

Jesus, Christmas, Christmas with the kids.

This is going to be a toughie.

And again, yes, it was difficult and yes, it was emotional at times, but it wasn't as bad as I kind of envisaged.

What really got me was putting the Christmas decorations back in the loft and thinking, I wonder who's going to get them down next year?

Because ain't going to be me.

So I just chucked him up any old house and thought, ha, ha, somebody else's problem next year.

But I didn't do that.

But it's things that creep up on you that I think that, you know, the mind is a very kind of weird and wonderful creation where, you know, you can't really predict what's going to be triggering and what's.

What's not.

But.

No, just to.

Just to go work.

Just to go back to work and pretend that everything's normal is.

Is not.

Is not easy.

No.

And I mean, obviously I know where we are today.

You're still here.

And yet when you share this story, I can't help but want to cry myself.

Really, I'm sorry about that, but.

No, I mean, it's the honest truth.

When I listen to you and I think of the heartache of your wife, of you at times, this idea.

I mean, none of us want to think about when we're not here.

Especially when it's the idea of leaving our family and the fact that we're not supposed to know when we're.

When we're gonna die.

That's something that we're not supposed to know.

And yet you were somebody who.

You were given that timetable.

I think there's.

Yeah, I think there's two things there.

So you.

Yes, I was given that timetable.

But I don't think we all.

None of us think we're gonna die.

None of us are gonna die.

Right.

It's always somebody else who's gonna get the cancer.

You know, it's always somebody else who's gonna get hit by a car.

It's always somebody else who's gonna go blind.

It's not.

It' be me, is it?

Especially not at 47, because we don't.

We don't talk about that.

We don't talk about our own mortality because it's awful.

Why Would you want to think about that?

And I think it's a very difficult concept to get your head around.

So I know we know we're all going to die, but until somebody, you know, turns around and tells you, oh, by the way, do you know what you've got?

You've got till probably just after Christmas and you go, sorry, what?

We don't talk about it because it's people who go, oh, I can't imagine what you're going through.

Well, you can, you can imagine that if you like, you are doing it now.

You can imagine it.

But we all choose not to.

And of course we choose not to.

Why would you want to imagine that?

It's awful.

Exactly.

And that's the thing.

When I was diagnosed, the thing that, you know, no disrespect to my wife, but it was the fact that we've gone through IVF to have the kids and then I wasn't going to go, I know.

And I invented this whole.

I hope she doesn't mind me saying, I invented this whole person, Brian, who was gonna, you know, my kids.

I don't remember anything from when I was four, let alone one.

My wife was only 40 at the time, you know, still very young.

She's probably going to meet someone else and he's probably going to be called Brian.

He's probably never going to.

Done a whole day's, you know, a day's work in his life and he's going to come into my house and they might even call him dad.

And they're not, he's not their dad.

And I kind of invented this whole future of the kids.

Not know, well, who's that bloke, you know, in a photograph?

Oh, he was your dad or was he?

No recollection of him whatsoever.

And that was just gut wrenching, absolutely gut wrenching.

And again, there's, you know, the juxtaposition of that is, you know, now when you're late for the play park, will you just get your shoes on, love of God, please just let me do the zip on your coat or whatever.

Don't throw spaghetti at the wall, whatever it might be.

Which is a constant battle.

Yes.

And you kind of have to just remind yourself, hang on a minute, this is what you wanted.

You wanted to see the spaghetti thrown at the pool and the socks being thrown off in a tantrum or whatever it might be.

So there is that.

It's a weird relationship between gratefulness and guilt and anger and confusion.

And I think I'm slowly starting to come out the other side.

But it's been a long process, of course.

What do the doctors say?

Not a lot, no.

Like I say, I was there today and they keep saying that just it was luck.

So what they think the only explanation they can give me and sorry.

So going back, I was just jumping around all over the place.

So the reason apparently that it took them three weeks to get me the results was that the results came back anaplastic thyroid cancer.

And they said it can't be anaplastic thyroid cancer because one is very, very rare and two, it mainly affects women over 60.

I don't tick either of those boxes, as I hope you've already appreciated.

So it went all around the houses to all these world experts to get a double checked and triple checked until they said it is, it's anaplastic thyroid cancer.

And the only explanation they can give me.

Yeah, so what he said to me this morning was that it was 33% anaplastic and 66%, I'm going to say, normal in a very common normal thyroid cancer.

And the only explanation they can give me is that the 66% was encapsulating the 33%.

And if it had been another couple of months, then he said we wouldn't be sat here today having this conversation.

Just pure luck.

So he reckons.

He said you could have had thyroid like normal thyroid.

Again, I'm using inverted commas, normal thyroid cancer because it's a very slow burner.

He said you could have had normal thyroid cancer for years and not known it.

And it was just his anaplastic bit.

It was ready to burst if you like, alien out of the stomach of John Hurt.

And if it had been another couple of months, then I wouldn't be here.

And that's the only explanation they give me is it was encapsulated in the other stuff.

Wow.

I'm not on any medication, I'm not on any, you know, I'm not.

I obviously take thyroxine, which is because I haven't got a thyroid.

So I have to take thyroxine tablets to replace what my thyroid should be doing, which is a thing in itself, because trying to get those levels rights is just.

Can be very difficult and it can be very exhausting and tiring and what have you.

But yeah, as I was chatting to someone, you're still living with it.

You're still.

I'm still living with cancer.

I've not got cancer, but I'm still living with the aftermath of that.

But to everybody else, are you the guy who had Cancer, four years ago.

And it's all, it's all better now?

Well, on the face of it, yes, but you know, it's left some, some visit physical scars and mental scars.

But no, they, they can't really give me any explanation as to why it is what it is.

But yeah, like I say, I, I walk in, I'm almost like a minor celebrity.

Oh, hi, Lee.

You're still here, still going.

I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still knocking about.

Yeah, okay.

See, another six months.

I mean, it's bizarre.

It's bizarre.

Yeah.

I mean, coming from my own perspective of my own story of becoming blind and the neurosurgeon having no explanation for it.

I mean, it was a 1% possibility to begin with.

I can say that at some point you have to just figure it was obviously meant to be part of my story and to focus on moving forward.

But for you and yourself, it's such an interesting.

I think you used the word odd dynamic of this whole situation and through all of this journey.

I think this is kind of segue into your podcast is your mental health when you were alone at night.

And I think sometimes it's at night when we can't sleep that sometimes can be the worst with our mind.

How are you?

Yeah, definitely.

And I always thought that I had a story to tell and I always sort of dabbled with the idea of doing a podcast.

But then I thought, well, other than say one episode, he wants to hear me rattle on about cancer every week.

That's very depressing prospect.

Tune in next week for some more dull cancer stories.

I've told you my best anecdotes about the guy with the.

Oh, I haven't told you one of my best anecdotes.

Can I tell you another anecdote?

Why please.

So what I didn't tell you is that part of the things you have like a blind spot.

So after the second operation, they then have to give me a dose of radioactive iodine treatment which I'll try and explain in as small detail as possible or shorter detail as possible.

You take a radioactive pill and you go inside a lead lined room and so whatever you take in does not come out again.

It gets incinerated.

So even the clothes on your back, whatever, you so don't wear any posh clothes in because they're going to get burnt.

Just go in, in your pajamas or whatever you're going to do and you're in there for.

I think I was in there for three or four days and you lie on this bed with a Geiger counter above the bed and the only people that you see are the nurses who come in twice a day in lead aprons and all the lead garb and they step forward and they give you your dinner and then they step back whilst you to allow you to step forward to get the tray and then that.

And then you have your lunch or dinner or whatever, breakfast and then you leave it on the side, right, other than that and you maybe say a few words to them then from a distance, but that's it, you don't see anybody else.

And then it's on my second day so I should do a second.

So I'm in the room that's the leaded bit but there's like a half height wall which is where they pass the dinner across and then on the other side is just like a bit of a lobby where there's a sink and like where my normal clothes are.

So the clothes I'm going to obviously go home in because they're going to burn my clothes and I'd rather not go home naked if at all possible.

So the clothes that I'm going to wear when I come out are on the other side of this wall.

So this guy comes in and.

All right, so I'm watching some like rubbish on the daytime telly and he says are you all right?

I said yeah, yeah, not bad, how you doing?

Oh yeah, fine.

Mind if I clean your sink?

And I said no, you crack on mate, you crack on.

So he's washing, he's wiping the sink on the other side of this wall and then he walks through.

Do you mind if I do this sink?

And there's like a sink at the end of my bed, right, and I've got like an ensuite bit as well which again is lead lined.

So he comes in and starts wiping this sink on now my side of the wall and I'm like, I don't, I'm not sure he's supposed to be in here.

And he's chatting away.

Oh, what are you watching on the telly mate?

I said oh I don't know, it's some rubbish, some daytime rubbish.

All right, I'm just going to do your en suite.

And he's wiping down the door handles and blah, blah because we're still in Covid, right?

So he's doing all the wiping it all down and then I can feel the hairs go on the back up on my neck as I'm telling this story.

He comes down the side of the bed and starts wiping the handles.

He's literally crouched down right next to me under this Geiger counter, wiping the handles of the bedside cupboard.

And I'm thinking, I.

I really don't think he's supposed to be in.

But he's a cleaner, right?

So he must know what he's doing.

He knows the.

Because you see the nurses, as soon as they give you the pill, they're off.

They're behind the.

They're behind the lead screen.

They don't want anything to do with you.

So it's at that point, oh, Dave, Dave, you can't be in there.

He's.

He's.

He's.

Hayley.

Because I think they've given me the highest radioactive dose they're allowed to give me because they want to blast me.

You can't be in there, Dave.

He's highly radioactive and he's like, what?

What?

So the nurse comes in and drags him out.

So he goes out and I could hear them talking in the corridor outside.

And he said, oh, he called me over to see.

He wanted to show me something on the telly.

Because I'm laying in bed, I'm like, no, he's throwing me under the bus.

I'm like, no, I didn't.

So it turns out it's this guy's first day as a cleaner and it's like a T junction, this corridor.

So the two wards that are on the one corridor aren't lead line, they're just normal, common or garden.

And you can go in and he's come round the corner, come into the first one, which is me, unbeknown to him, just started cleaning and I never saw him again.

I don't know what happened to him.

But yeah, he was like.

He threw me under the bus.

So I often wonder what's happened to poor Dave.

But he was in merrily cleaning away while I'm.

Cause that was the thing.

So when I came out, I had to live on my own.

Well, my mum actually moved up for a while.

I had to be on my own for 10 days.

Cause I'm like, you wouldn't know what the Ready Breck man is over there, would you?

But I'm radioactive, so I can't come in contact with, well, anybody really.

Especially not young kids.

So, yeah, I was still radioactive for 10 days after coming out and I'm housebound and can't.

So goodness knows how radioactive I was at the time that Dave was squatting next to my bed, wiping down the handles of my bedside unit.

But yeah, poor Dave.

I hope he's okay, what was your original question, Kevin?

Sorry, I forgot.

I have no idea what I asked you, but what you answered was way better than what my question was.

I think we were getting into the podcast, so why was I so, yes, I was going to do the podcast.

Who wants to hear about me?

Bark on about once you've heard my anecdotes, once you don't want to hear me week in, week out talking about cancer.

But what I did have was a lot of people who reached out to me because.

Right, here's another story.

So I was diagnosed in the September, and it got to about the November ish time.

And I said to my wife, I said, look, I'm going to have to put a post out on social media.

And she says, we can't do that.

It's a very private thing.

I was like, I get that.

But the alternative is we get till after Christmas.

And because I don't know how long you know, of that.

Four to six months.

How much am I accomplishment and how much am I in sort of palliative care or whatever, that you have to put a post out in the new year sometime and say ever so sorry just to let everyone know on Facebook or whatever, friends and what have you, that Lee's been taken into palliative care or worse still, Lee's dead.

And I'm sorry, it's not funny at all.

But I'm like.

And she said, yeah, yeah, there is that.

Yeah, you better.

What do you mean he's dead?

I didn't even know he had cancer because we've kept it to ourselves.

I said things could change very, very quickly.

So we made the decision that we put a post out there to tell people what was happening as vaguely as we could.

But of course, that the floodgates open.

And I suppose that's what started the podcast called Mind Cake.

And it started about 12 months ago.

So it's maybe three years after I was diagnosed.

But the genesis of that was.

So then, of course, people wanted updates.

So I was posting updates probably in line with the oncology appointment.

So every month to start with, every three months, every six months, whatever.

And I had people coming to me saying, you know, you've obviously been through the mill, and that must be, you know, a terrible experience that you've had.

I don't know.

You know, you've been so brave and so strong and so inspirational, which, you know, I happen to think I haven't.

I just.

I was just put in a situation.

You kind of got to do what you got to do.

But people were coming out with their stories and saying, look, I'm having.

I'm having mental health problems.

Have you got any advice of how to sort of get through and how to sort of navigate?

And I'm like, not really, no.

I have a fairly unique backstory.

But, you know, I'm.

I'm on.

I don't mind saying I'm on antidepressants and I go and see a clinical psychologist once a fortnight.

So, you know, we're all kind of in the same boat.

But why don't we.

Let's use this as a vehicle to explore, you know, mental health and coping mechanisms and get some guests on and talk to experts and just hear people's stories and, and as you can probably tell from my tone on this, and we don't take ourselves very seriously.

It's, you know, it's a quite difficult subject matter, but it's a bit of a laugh, really.

We do have a lot of waffle.

We go off a lot of tangents and I think I find it quite cathartic just, you know, because it's.

I've got a self interest here.

We'll go, let's try a sound bath.

Let's try some meditation.

Let's, you know, I was.

Had some bee therapy the other day.

I mean, I'd never even heard of bee therapy.

And, you know, and I think there's a nice little community that we're.

That we're building.

And I found some real kind of solace in doing the podcast and just connecting with people and building this community.

And, you know, because I think I had a politician, you're probably not aware of him over in the States, but he's quite high profile.

He was Tony Blair's director of communications, a guy called Alistair Campbell, and he managed to get him on the podcast, which is a whole different story, which I won't go into now.

And he was saying kind of, look, we're all on the spectrum, if you like, we've all got mental health, some of us have good mental health, some of us have bad mental health, but we're all on a scale 0 to 10.

It's just a case of where we are on that scale.

So, yeah, I think it's interesting to kind of explore that and kind of help each other through, because I think part of the thing for me is that it's like anything in life.

I think if you hear of.

I think people think that their story is unique and they're the only people that feel like that.

And it can feel quite isolating.

And, you know, I know from feelings that I've had when, you know, if you can relate to someone and you go, that's how.

That's how I feel.

I thought that was just me that felt like that.

And all of a sudden you don't feel quite as much as a, I don't know, a weirdo for want of a better expression or a social leper because you go, all right, I thought I was alone in this.

And the fact that you can share your stories and have people who can empathize with that and understand is very powerful, I think.

Yeah, absolutely.

I have two questions.

First question, your wife was hesitant about you posting on Facebook.

How did she react when you said, honey, I want to do a podcast.

That'S fine.

She doesn't listen, so I can do what I like.

So I should say that episode two is kind of my story and pretty much everything that I've said on your podcast in terms of what happened and why I'm doing it, but the rest of it is very much, like I say, speaking to other people.

It's not wrapped up in cancer or doom and gloom.

It's very upbeat.

There's some difficult subject matter, but me and Paul, who's the co host, have a good laugh doing it.

And, yeah, I don't reveal, other than that.

Episode two, it's not something where I'm navel gazing and harking back to those terrible times four years ago.

I think it's quite a positive.

And she sees that.

She sees.

She sees my face light up.

When I'm sure you're the same, Kevin, when you.

When you.

When you're speaking to certain people and just getting to know people and finding out their stories, there's something very, very privileged about that.

When you.

When, you know, you can just.

I've met people and chatted well, like yourself, who I would never have dreamed of.

You wouldn't work in the same country, but the same circles, the same kind of.

Whoever it might be.

And I think there's something very special about that.

And so, yeah, I think she's.

She's probably changed her mind from someone who was probably quite.

Not skeptical, but just maybe slightly concerned to start with.

She can now see that it's kind of, you know, it's grown into something that's, you know, a positive force, that.

That is really quite, I think, to be celebrated.

Yeah, absolutely.

The name of the podcast, Mind Cake.

What.

What does that mean?

Where did that come from?

It depends whether you ask me or whether you Ask Paul.

Okay.

So I came up with the name Mind Cake for reasons I will go into later.

Paul liked.

Yeah, yeah, I like that because it's like the mind is like a cake with all different layers, and we're, you know, all different layers of the mind, and we're all different kind of flavors, and we're all different types of the same cake.

And I'm like, no, no, you're really looking into this far too much.

We have a comedy character.

We have a comedy character over here called Alan Partridge.

I don't know if you're aware of Alan Partridge.

I'm not.

No, no.

See if you can find some clips on YouTube because he is hilarious.

He's still going now.

He's been going for years.

Steve Coogan.

Are you wearing Steve Coogan?

Okay.

The actor.

Yeah, he plays this character, Alan Partridge.

Now, if he was doing a mental health podcast, he would call it Mind Cake because that's the kind of guy that he is.

So it doesn't kind of work if you don't know who Alan Partridge is.

But I was like, big comedy hero of mine.

It was what Alan Partridge would call a mental health podcast.

So, yeah, it's take which one you want.

Whether the deep.

Paul's deep version on mine was.

It's just.

What I should say as well is there is a guy, Peter McVeigh.

Hello, Peter, if you're listening, who is in the bands.

And Alban, he's the voice.

He kindly did our opening jingle, and I think this says everything about the podcast.

I didn't give him anything to go on.

I said, can you just give me a jingle?

Opening jingle.

So he's written the music and sung, sung the theme tune.

And it says, all he says is, let's start a podcast about our mental health, and for no good reason why, let's call it Mind Cake.

And that kind of sums up.

It just sounds.

I think it sounds quite good.

Yeah, I agree.

I like it.

I think it's catchy.

And it's catchy.

Who doesn't like cake?

Exactly, Exactly.

I agree 100%.

Wow, that is just so very funny.

And yet, what I love about it, what I love about the podcast is this idea that you can take something that happened to you and you can turn it around in a way to be able to help other people, you know, and that's how I know in my own life and my own story, I've been able to make sense of it all, is if I'm able to use it to help others, then it kind of makes me grateful in a way.

Absolutely.

I mean, how many episodes are you on now, Kevin?

I am up to 300 and something.

Yeah.

Oh, wow.

Are you weekly?

I am twice a week.

Wow.

Wow.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

And have you found it?

Like I said, have you found it quite.

How do you feel about doing it?

I'd be interested to know.

Have you found it cathartic?

Have you found it meeting people with terminal cancer on the other side of the pond?

Again, you must have had some weird and wonderful guests on over 300 episodes.

And so how do you find it doing these interviews?

They literally light up my day.

I believe firmly that in this life, the things that matter the most are the relationships we make and the experiences we have.

Yeah, when I get to do this podcast, I combine both of those.

I get to meet somebody, but I get to create an experience out of it by sitting down with them, getting to hear their story.

And for myself, it just lights me up.

It's a lot of work.

As you know, doing a podcast is a lot to prepare for it.

And there's some days when I'll be honest, I get out of bed and I'm like, oh, no, I have an interview today.

But it's the best thing that happens to me in that day because literally, I come out the other side and I just feel like a better version of me.

And I only can hope and pray that anybody listening that they come away the same way.

Because take you, for instance.

When you hear your story, you feel sad.

When you meet you, you can't feel sad, because when you meet you and you hear you in your perspective, in your sense of humor and your positive outlook, it's absolutely just electric.

Thank you.

And you, you're a remarkable guy, man.

Thank you.

I really appreciate that.

I appreciate that.

Because like you say, as you were saying, it's connections that you make and the experiences you have.

And another, not quite as an entertaining anecdote, but we were the night before.

And I think that's the thing is, you know, you kind of have to.

Again, it's something that we all realize, but we don't want to think about that.

You know, your life can change on a dime.

And the night before.

So on the 15th of September, 2020, we were in a WhatsApp group with my wife's friends talking about doing, like, DIY in the hall, and she sending us links to.

We could maybe have this type of rugby, and you could maybe have, you know, this type of wallpaper and all these, like, Pinterest.

Yes.

All These pins were going backwards and forwards.

We could do this and we could do that and that color scheme and blah, blah, blah, blah.

And we went to bed.

Gone.

Midnight that night on the 15th of September, and then by 9:00 on the 16th of September in the morning, I've been hit with this sledgehammer.

And you re.

And I remember ruminating that night before going, oh, no, I need to send that work email.

And I didn't go for my run yesterday.

You know, I've put on two pounds in weight and, and all these things, the day to day drama that you get caught up with and then you get hit with that sledgehammer and you realize, oh, oh, none of that actually matters.

Absolute.

Yeah, absolutely.

I was trying to think of a word that's not a swear word.

I do apologize.

But none of that stuff matters.

None of that stuff matters at all.

And that was.

One of the first people we told was Heather, who was kind of helping us with the design because I'm like, we're going to have to.

She kindly sent all these pins of wallpaper and radiator casings and blah, blah, blah.

And then there's been radio silence.

You're going to have to tell her.

I don't know what you're going to tell her, but you're going to have to tell her something.

And like I say, all.

All that I wanted to do then was be with my kids and with my family, and there isn't.

So the rest of it doesn't matter at all.

No, but it takes you to get to that lowest ebb, to kind of realize that.

Or for me to realize it anyway.

Yeah, no, absolutely.

For somebody listening today, and maybe they're struggling mentally, what would you love to say to them?

Advice you have.

Besides for telling them to go listen to your podcast, what would you say to that person?

Oh, I wouldn't know.

Don't listen to my podcast.

If there's no.

Unless you.

If you're an insomniac and you trouble sleeping, then by all means tune into Mindcake and you should have no problem dropping off whatsoever.

If you've got any real problems, then go and see a professional.

But no, I mean, I think it can take many different forms.

If you're again speaking to Alistair Campbell, he was saying that he will grade himself every morning.

And I think it's quite an interesting thing to do.

And I started doing it myself now.

So again, one will be blissfully happy, which is kind of unattainable in his world where without wanting to put My colors to the mask where Donald Trump was never president of the United States and where Brexit never happened.

And yeah, it's unattainable happiness equally.

10 is suicide.

So he will get up in the morning and will think, right, I'm probably about a 3 or a 4 or whatever it is.

And he says, if I become a five or a six, then I know I need to do something to try and rectify that balance.

So whether that's going for a walk, whether that's, you know, walking the dog or doing some meditation or whatever things work for him to try.

And I mean, quite an interesting episode I did was an episode with.

Have you heard of shed therapy?

I have not.

It's not.

It's nothing to do with garden sheds.

Oh, it's an acronym.

It's an acronym for.

Although I'm sure gardening and planting your own vegetables is equally beneficial.

Yes, but if you don't want to grow your own broccoli, then shed is so sleep, hydration, exercise, diet.

And I think if you can keep those plates spinning, I mean, I noticed that if I've drunk my two liters of water in the day, I feel, you know, so much better.

Diet is huge, I think plays a huge part in our mental health.

If you put rubbish in, then, you know, you get rubbish out and you don't, you don't feel, you know, all this highly processed food.

And like I say, I'm not evangelical about it.

I'm not.

I've not come out the other side of this and gone, right, I am now completely vegan and I don't drink any alcohol and I'm, you know, I'm.

That's.

That's not me.

I think you have to strike a balance between, you know, living but also being, you know, sensible.

So I think depending on.

If someone.

Look, clearly if someone is feeling depressed, then the first thing you should do is go and see the doctor or talk to someone about it.

Because I think sharing that, going to the doctors and admitting that there is a problem, I think is probably the hardest thing to do.

But if you're just in the.

I say just in the.

If you're in the day to day, I feel a bit of a malaise.

I'm.

I'm just feeling a bit.

Sometimes, I mean, sometimes I wake up, for example, and I feel just disconnected.

I don't feel like I'm in the real world.

I feel.

It's very difficult to explain, but I feel that I'm almost like watching my life through a TV or through A lens.

It does.

It doesn't quite feel real.

And I know then that I didn't sleep.

I went to bed at like half eleven or whatever.

I didn't.

I didn't get a proper night's sleep or I've not.

I've not exercised, I'm not.

And I have to put things in place.

And I think that's going back to the podcast.

I think that's the thing.

What we always say is what works for me might not work for you.

So it's kind of a buffet, if you like, of trying all these different things and encouraging other people to try different things and seeing what works for them.

I would say the one thing that works for me is cold water therapy.

You talk about mindfulness and meditation.

I find it very difficult to sit still and think about nothing.

I find meditation very, very difficult.

But plunge into, as I said, I'm not far from Loch Lomond.

Plunge into Loch Lomond or take a cold shower.

There's not much else you can think about other than, bloody hell, this is cold.

I mean, you don't, you're not thinking about, you're not thinking about anything else.

And it's also, I mean, I feel great.

I feel great when I come out of a cold shower.

It's taken a while to sort of get myself, tune myself into that.

But, yeah, I think if there's, if there's one thing I could do that I know that if I'm in a bit of a funky is take a cold shower.

But like I say that, but Paul, the co host, I've been trying to get him to do cold water therapy for, well, since we started the podcast.

That's 12 months and he's got no chance.

I am not, I am not taking a cold shower.

I'm like.

But the benefits, I think you really feel the benefit.

No, not interested.

So clearly not for him.

But no, I think, like you say, professional help.

I don't know what it's like in the States, to be fair.

The problem that you've got here in the uk, we have the nhs, we have the National Health Service.

But the problem is, if I went to the doctors now and said, look, I think of, I'm struggling with anxiety or depression or whatever, I would be on a waiting list for probably, I don't know, eight, nine, ten months before I would get to see a professional, which is.

Which is no good.

So I'm, you know, I'm lucky that I've got private healthcare with work.

So, yeah, I get to see somebody privately but if you're just going through the nhs, then, yeah, I mean, it's.

I'm trying to think what Alastair Campbell described as.

It's not a mental health service, it's a mental health crisis, because if it was a service, somebody would be on tap to help you.

And what he also says, and again, going back to those mechanisms, is trying to do things that are preventative rather than, you know, I now feel, because of whatever facts, whether they're external factors that, you know, you've been diagnosed with cancer or you've, you know, you've lost your sight, whatever it might be that's caused your anxiety or depression, or whether it's something internally, like, say, your diet or you're not getting enough sleep or whatever, you should be able to see someone.

But that's not always.

It's not always easy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And like I said, I don't know what would be the situation in the States at the minute if you.

If you decided that you wanted to see somebody?

How does that work?

I honestly don't know as far as.

Unless it's just reaching out to your own local doctor and going from there.

I really am not familiar with it, honestly.

Besides that avenue, I mean, goodness, anybody interested look up better help?

That's what I hear on all the podcasts lately, is everybody promoting BetterHelp, and I guess it's a number you can call, but I think it is a mental health crisis in.

In this world.

And I mean, just here in America.

I mean, it is something that I don't think.

It's not.

It's not understood and it's not respected enough as an actual problem, you know, an illness, you know, a medical issue, you know, where other things get more attention and it does need more light brought to it.

And I think that's what's powerful about a conversation with you today.

What's powerful about your podcast, mindcake, is bringing it to the forelight to understanding that if you are in a place where you're feeling a little down, you're sad, you're depressed, that you're not alone and it's okay, and there is resources and help for you.

Yeah.

And like I said, I've had my own instances where we've, you know, there's this.

Professionals, mental health professionals that have said to me, like, after two years, you know, how you.

How you feeling about, you know, what's happened and what have you?

And like, I'm really struggling mentally to sort of process this and kind of get my head around it and They've turned around to me and said, it's been two years, Lee.

Do you think you should maybe try and change the narrative?

And.

Oh, yeah, no, I just.

Again, you go, because you're over that now, aren't you?

You're over that now.

So I say, even me, as if I'm, you know, at the pinnacle of mental health problems, but even someone who's dealt with terminal cancer has people who are mental health professionals say, should you not be over it by now?

And it's like you say, it's invisible.

If I went in and my leg was falling off, don't mean I had a gash in my leg, people would be, jesus Christ, we need to see this guy quick.

He's gonna lose his leg.

But go in with.

You know, and I think that's the thing.

As much as not.

We make light of.

We never.

We never make light of things on the podcast.

But as much as it's a serious.

It's a serious subject, and there is a.

There is still a taboo about it because you can't see it.

Yeah.

And like I said, I think, like you mentioned there, I think if you can reach out to people, and I think that's the first step.

Reach out to people, whether that's, you know, somebody professional, whether that's a friend.

And I think you'll find that, you know, there are a lot of people who, you go, oh, oh, okay.

You feel like that as well.

I mean, I thought that was just me being a bit of an oddball, but it's, you know, it's.

It's more common than you think.

And I think having that, like I say, the safety numbers and that.

I'm not suggesting that everybody who listens to mindcake has got a mental health problem.

I think, you know, there's quite a lot of banter and.

And just waffle, as we call it, as well.

And obviously, people, the insomniacs who are desperate to fall asleep, they're part of our.

Huge.

Part of our demographic.

Yeah.

I think it's just interesting, like you say, to have these discussions and try and talk more openly.

More openly about it.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, before we close out, be sure to tell everyone where's the easiest, best places that they can find.

And listen to Mindcake.

Mindcake is on all the platforms.

So all you insomniacs out there, you can go on Spotify, you can go on Apple Podcasts.

I think it's on.

But if you go, we have a link tree.

So if you just search mindcake, you will find us.

It's like a brain in a cupcake.

It's a mind in a cupcake.

You'll see it.

We do have, I think we've got about 7% of our listeners from the States, so we got a few from the other side of the pond over there.

But it'd be nice to get.

Nice to get a few more.

Yeah, we just like to listen to Yalls.

Cool accents, you know.

Yeah, I should say that.

Yeah.

I am from the south of England, obviously not sounding very Scottish.

I have lived up here 17 years, but not picked up the twang.

Yes.

But yeah, no, I'd definitely be tuned into your podcast, Kevin, because it's been an absolute pleasure to.

To talk to you and I've really enjoyed it.

So thank you.

Oh, well, thank you.

That means a lot to me and it has equally made my day.

Thank you.

And for you listening, be sure to check out today's show notes.

I, of course, will leave links where you can find Mindcake wherever you like to listen.

And most of all, thank you for being here.

Hope you enjoyed.

And of course, more than anything, I hope something said today might help you.

Maybe you're been struggling.

Maybe you know somebody who's maybe been struggling and maybe you could share today's episode with them or just reach out to them and be a friend.

That means a lot.

So with that said, this is another episode of great grace and inspiration.

I'm your host, Kevin Lowe.

Get out there and enjoy the day.

Sa.