Are you ready to dive into a story that twists the fabric of family ties and personal truth? What does it take to stand boldly in your identity, especially when it's at odds with those you love?

This isn't just another coming out story; it's a saga of courage, confrontation, and the complex dance of family dynamics.

Who Is This Best For?

Perfect for anyone wrestling with their identity or seeking inspiration on how to handle difficult family conversations with grace and audacity. This episode promises to be as enlightening as it is enthralling, offering you the roadmap to navigating the rough waters of acceptance and self-realization.

What's It All About?

Join your host, Kevin Lowe, for a fabulous ride with John Neral as he recounts his vibrant and poignant journey of coming out as gay within a staunchly conservative family. From explosive revelations to heartfelt reconciliations, John's story isn't just about surviving; it's about thriving against the odds. His narrative is packed with sharp wit, raw emotion, and triumphant moments that celebrate the human spirit in all its colors.


Key Takeaways:

  • Master the art of conversation that turns conflict into compassion.
  • Discover the power of self-acceptance and its transformative impact on personal and family relationships.
  • Learn how to build and leverage a support network that sees you through life's toughest challenges.


LINKS & RESOURCES


BE IN THE KNOW!

CLICK HERE to Get on The OFFICIAL Email List for the Podcast!


Hey, it's Kevin!


I hope you enjoyed today's episode! If there is ever anything I can do for you please don't hesitate to reach out. Below, you will find ALL the places and ALL the ways to connect!


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  • Show Notes

    Are you ready to dive into a story that twists the fabric of family ties and personal truth? What does it take to stand boldly in your identity, especially when it's at odds with those you love?

    This isn't just another coming out story; it's a saga of courage, confrontation, and the complex dance of family dynamics.

    Who Is This Best For?

    Perfect for anyone wrestling with their identity or seeking inspiration on how to handle difficult family conversations with grace and audacity. This episode promises to be as enlightening as it is enthralling, offering you the roadmap to navigating the rough waters of acceptance and self-realization.

    What's It All About?

    Join your host, Kevin Lowe, for a fabulous ride with John Neral as he recounts his vibrant and poignant journey of coming out as gay within a staunchly conservative family. From explosive revelations to heartfelt reconciliations, John's story isn't just about surviving; it's about thriving against the odds. His narrative is packed with sharp wit, raw emotion, and triumphant moments that celebrate the human spirit in all its colors.


    Key Takeaways:

    • Master the art of conversation that turns conflict into compassion.
    • Discover the power of self-acceptance and its transformative impact on personal and family relationships.
    • Learn how to build and leverage a support network that sees you through life's toughest challenges.


    LINKS & RESOURCES


    BE IN THE KNOW!

    CLICK HERE to Get on The OFFICIAL Email List for the Podcast!


    Hey, it's Kevin!


    I hope you enjoyed today's episode! If there is ever anything I can do for you please don't hesitate to reach out. Below, you will find ALL the places and ALL the ways to connect!




    Stay Awesome! Live Inspired!

    © 2024 Grit, Grace, & Inspiration

    Show Transcript

    Are you wondering if today's episode is really for you? Well,



    00:00:04.757 --> 00:00:07.777


    I'm going to make it really easy. I got three criteria.



    00:00:08.417 --> 00:00:13.317


    First, are you human? Second, do you have a family?



    00:00:14.037 --> 00:00:17.877


    And three, have you ever gotten in an argument, a disagreement,



    00:00:18.157 --> 00:00:21.397


    had a rift in the family that has caused a little bit of drama?



    00:00:21.797 --> 00:00:27.977


    If you checked those three boxes, then yes, today's episode is indeed for you.



    00:00:27.977 --> 00:00:35.297


    When I sat down to interview today's guest, John Nero, I thought it was a coming out story.



    00:00:35.557 --> 00:00:40.037


    It took him 18 years to come out to his parents that he was gay.



    00:00:40.237 --> 00:00:45.497


    And I thought that was the highlight of this interview.



    00:00:45.697 --> 00:00:48.157


    But the fact is true that it wasn't.



    00:00:48.677 --> 00:00:54.257


    The highlight is what comes next. It is mending of relationships.



    00:00:54.497 --> 00:01:02.897


    It's bringing a family back together. It is him trying to show you what it means to be a family.



    00:01:03.177 --> 00:01:07.997


    You might argue, you might say some things that you wish you didn't,



    00:01:08.097 --> 00:01:14.157


    but the fact is true, it is a relationship and sometimes it takes a little bit of work.



    00:01:14.417 --> 00:01:22.177


    My hope in you hearing John's story is, well, that it might be that spark to



    00:01:22.177 --> 00:01:25.517


    inspire you to maybe reach out to your family.



    00:01:25.517 --> 00:01:27.817


    Maybe there's been a rift for



    00:01:27.817 --> 00:01:32.377


    way too long, and I'm here to tell you that this life is way too short.



    00:01:32.497 --> 00:01:34.857


    In our family, they mean everything.



    00:01:35.317 --> 00:01:41.317


    So if you have a rift in your family with a family member, I hope that today's



    00:01:41.317 --> 00:01:46.757


    episode not only inspires you, but also gives you the tools to reach out to



    00:01:46.757 --> 00:01:50.177


    that person and to start to mend those broken fences.



    00:01:50.717 --> 00:01:57.017


    Today is episode 286. Today is my interview with John Darrell.



    00:01:59.184 --> 00:02:03.164


    What's up, my friend, and welcome to Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.



    00:02:03.344 --> 00:02:04.924


    I am your host, Kevin Lowe.



    00:02:05.124 --> 00:02:11.004


    20 years ago, I awoke from a life-saving surgery only to find that I was left completely blind.



    00:02:11.244 --> 00:02:16.344


    And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.



    00:02:16.664 --> 00:02:20.444


    And here on this podcast, I want to share those insights with you.



    00:02:20.604 --> 00:02:24.164


    Because friend, if you are still searching for your purpose,



    00:02:24.384 --> 00:02:29.864


    still trying to understand why, or still left searching for that next right



    00:02:29.864 --> 00:02:34.404


    path to take, we'll consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from



    00:02:34.404 --> 00:02:36.224


    where you are to where you want to be.



    00:02:37.484 --> 00:02:44.364


    Today's prayer request comes from a woman who you will actually be hearing from later this summer.



    00:02:44.444 --> 00:02:46.384


    Her name is Dr. Robin Hall.



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    I just had the pleasure of speaking with her the other day about being a guest here on the podcast.



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    And while we were talking, she mentioned her friend, Julie. Julie and her friend



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    has been suffering from brain cancer.



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    And so I wanted today to ask you to help me in praying for Julie to,



    00:03:06.284 --> 00:03:10.144


    of course, pray for healing, but also for comfort and peace,



    00:03:10.344 --> 00:03:13.364


    both for her and for her friends and family.



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    Again, her name is Julie, and it would be amazing if you could help me in praying for her today.



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    And remember, if you have something that you would love to have some others



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    helping you in praying for, well, send it to me via text message to 877-749-8178.



    00:03:34.304 --> 00:03:38.704


    That's right. You can send your prayer request to be featured on an upcoming



    00:03:38.704 --> 00:03:46.384


    episode of the podcast as a text message to 877-749-8178.



    00:03:47.589 --> 00:03:51.929


    As you listen to today's interview with John Nero, as I said in the intro,



    00:03:52.069 --> 00:03:56.629


    he's going to give you some really amazing techniques that he's learned in his



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    own life that are going to help you with your relationships.



    00:04:00.809 --> 00:04:05.829


    But one thing he didn't mention is something that I want to tell you is that



    00:04:05.829 --> 00:04:08.189


    if you have a rift in the family,



    00:04:08.349 --> 00:04:16.329


    what better way to reach out to that person than by giving them a gift from MyPillow. Absolutely.



    00:04:16.729 --> 00:04:21.449


    And here is the cool thing. They are going to think that, oh my gosh,



    00:04:21.609 --> 00:04:23.789


    they just spent this kind of money on me.



    00:04:23.969 --> 00:04:28.909


    But they didn't know that you had promo code Kevin, and that got you access



    00:04:28.909 --> 00:04:31.469


    to the $25 extravaganza.



    00:04:31.669 --> 00:04:36.829


    Yes, some of their very best products are on sale for only $25.



    00:04:37.689 --> 00:04:43.329


    All you have to do is use promo code Kevin. when shopping at MyPillow.com to



    00:04:43.329 --> 00:04:45.909


    get access to those amazing deals.



    00:04:46.449 --> 00:04:50.449


    So with that, it's time for you to get shopping, fixing some relationships,



    00:04:50.709 --> 00:04:54.129


    and having everybody sleeping a little bit better.



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    I had a great childhood. I mean, we never wanted for anything in that regard.



    00:05:00.409 --> 00:05:05.229


    I grew up along the Jersey Shore, a couple blocks away from the ocean,



    00:05:05.289 --> 00:05:07.229


    which was a great place to grow up.



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    And not like the MTV Jersey Shore, but a little different than that.



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    I have two older sisters.



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    My parents had me a little bit later in their life.



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    So my mom was three weeks before her 43rd birthday when she had me.



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    I was definitely a change of life baby for both of them.



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    And yeah, it was just I grew up in a very staunch Catholic household.



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    Religion was very important growing up. I had an uncle who was a Catholic priest.



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    East. He was my mom's brother who had a very predominant presence in the family, I'll say.



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    You know, it was just, it was, it was a really good childhood overall. I have no complaints.



    00:05:47.917 --> 00:05:52.717


    Yeah. Well, that's great. Now your sisters, how much older were both of your sisters?



    00:05:53.057 --> 00:05:57.737


    So I have one sister who is 18 years older than me and I have another sister



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    who is 10 years older than me.



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    And so as a point of reference, I'm 55.



    00:06:03.817 --> 00:06:11.277


    Yes. Okay. Well, now with such a massive gap growing up, did you get to really



    00:06:11.277 --> 00:06:16.817


    spend much time with either of them and really get to know them as a kid or not really?



    00:06:17.157 --> 00:06:23.617


    Not really. So my oldest sister, I was four when she got married.



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    And so while I remember growing up, it was oftentimes it was her and her husband.



    00:06:31.137 --> 00:06:37.277


    For my other sister, who's 10 years older than me, she was the one I was closer



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    to in that I would always ask things like, can we have some time?



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    Like, can I have some time? I want to play.



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    And for her as a teenager, having to deal with a brother who was 10 years younger



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    than her and probably being a pest most of the time, she had her own friends



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    and she had her own life that she was wanting to lead.



    00:06:57.277 --> 00:07:05.197


    So yeah, there was time, but it wasn't a really close or proximal sibling type relationship.



    00:07:05.981 --> 00:07:11.741


    Okay. Okay. Understandable. That's kind of what I expected you to say with the



    00:07:11.741 --> 00:07:15.261


    large gap in years. It only kind of makes sense.



    00:07:15.581 --> 00:07:19.801


    Moving right along in your story, talk to me about 10 years old,



    00:07:19.861 --> 00:07:23.641


    because I read something that just absolutely made me crack up.



    00:07:23.721 --> 00:07:28.261


    And I would love for you to share this story about being 10. him. Yeah, absolutely.



    00:07:28.681 --> 00:07:31.421


    So the year is 1979.



    00:07:32.141 --> 00:07:37.621


    And again, I grew up in a very staunch Catholic household and things happened.



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    And I can't tell this story without acknowledging an event that happened to



    00:07:42.761 --> 00:07:47.441


    my sister who was 10 years older than me. She was 18 and she got pregnant.



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    And I will share with you, Kevin, as well as everybody who's listening that



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    in my opinion and in my perspective, nobody handled it well.



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    And of course, how could they, right? This was something which we didn't hear



    00:08:02.681 --> 00:08:06.101


    a lot of, and it was often swept under the rug.



    00:08:06.281 --> 00:08:12.441


    And there was shame and embarrassment and anger and frustration and all of those kinds of things.



    00:08:12.641 --> 00:08:20.641


    And that's the relationship that my parents and my sister had to deal with.



    00:08:20.781 --> 00:08:23.801


    I, on the other hand, Kevin, was collateral damage.



    00:08:26.761 --> 00:08:32.661


    And I say that because when my sister broke the news to my parents,



    00:08:32.921 --> 00:08:38.281


    and we had a two-story house, and I was upstairs looking through the spindles



    00:08:38.281 --> 00:08:43.181


    and the railing trying to see what was going on, there was a lot of yelling,



    00:08:43.321 --> 00:08:44.501


    there was a lot of screaming,



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    there was a lot of crying, and then there was a door slam.



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    And my sister had left.



    00:08:51.001 --> 00:08:55.521


    And my mom called me downstairs and she sat me on her lap.



    00:08:55.641 --> 00:09:02.001


    And with tears in her eyes, she looked at me and she said, what your sister did was very bad.



    00:09:02.261 --> 00:09:05.681


    And if you ever go to bed with a woman before you're married,



    00:09:05.861 --> 00:09:07.981


    I hope you see my face instead of hers.



    00:09:10.201 --> 00:09:18.141


    Oh, no. Yeah. Let that one sit in. Let that sink in for a moment, everybody.



    00:09:19.741 --> 00:09:26.341


    Wow. Yeah. So, you know, so when you're 10 and you want to be a good son and



    00:09:26.341 --> 00:09:31.041


    you realize there's been a lot of upset and a lot of crying and you,



    00:09:31.121 --> 00:09:33.301


    you know, you just, you know, I'm like, okay. Yeah.



    00:09:34.491 --> 00:09:38.211


    Can I go back and watch TV? Like, all right. Like, I don't want to make my mom



    00:09:38.211 --> 00:09:39.791


    more upset than what she already is.



    00:09:40.531 --> 00:09:46.851


    But it opens up the bigger question, which was at 10 years old,



    00:09:47.091 --> 00:09:50.731


    did I really know that I was gay? Yes.



    00:09:51.491 --> 00:09:59.691


    And it wasn't until 16 years after that day or that year when I was 26 that



    00:09:59.691 --> 00:10:05.611


    I had finally uttered the words to some good friends of mine and said, I think I'm gay.



    00:10:06.051 --> 00:10:10.971


    And it wasn't until I was 28 when I came out to my parents.



    00:10:11.411 --> 00:10:18.411


    And that is a whole nother chapter in this story, which I'm sure we'll get to as well.



    00:10:19.111 --> 00:10:27.991


    Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. So, yes, what your mother said is terrifying to anybody, no doubt.



    00:10:28.151 --> 00:10:32.471


    Oh, my gosh. gosh, that is just, that is such a thing that like a mother would



    00:10:32.471 --> 00:10:37.311


    say in the heat of the moment, like that just literally can torture you for



    00:10:37.311 --> 00:10:40.211


    the rest of your life. Yeah, absolutely.



    00:10:40.491 --> 00:10:48.331


    Right. And you think about her upset and her grief and her desire to control,



    00:10:48.591 --> 00:10:54.691


    like this, this is what she thought was, you know, she was doing to keep me



    00:10:54.691 --> 00:10:56.551


    on the quote, quote unquote, right path.



    00:10:56.991 --> 00:11:02.271


    And Kevin, where it became a source of contention for us was that,



    00:11:02.971 --> 00:11:06.571


    you know, I dated a little bit when I was in high school and college,



    00:11:06.771 --> 00:11:10.751


    but it never went anywhere, right? And to clarify, I dated women.



    00:11:11.631 --> 00:11:15.731


    And of course, you know, the biggest fear is, oh my gosh, if I get one of them



    00:11:15.731 --> 00:11:19.651


    pregnant, I'm going to kill my parents kind of a thing, with all that upset.



    00:11:20.171 --> 00:11:24.371


    But my mom would joke about it with her friends and they'd be like,



    00:11:24.371 --> 00:11:27.411


    Like, oh, well, how'd you keep John to be such a good kid?



    00:11:27.711 --> 00:11:31.911


    And how did you raise John? And my mother would joke about that day and said,



    00:11:32.011 --> 00:11:35.131


    oh yeah, well, I just told him if he ever goes to bed with a woman before he's



    00:11:35.131 --> 00:11:37.071


    married, I hope he sees my face instead of hers.



    00:11:37.691 --> 00:11:43.011


    And I was 18 and my parents were hosting this party. We had a lot of people over the house, Kevin.



    00:11:43.491 --> 00:11:48.351


    And she told this joke and I was so mad and I was so upset and I leaned into



    00:11:48.351 --> 00:11:52.651


    the group and I went, mama said nothing about going to bed with a man.



    00:11:55.091 --> 00:12:00.331


    And holy crap, did I get it after everybody left.



    00:12:00.491 --> 00:12:03.491


    She was mad at me. You don't say those kind of things.



    00:12:03.891 --> 00:12:07.751


    That's not funny. And I said, right, it's not funny.



    00:12:08.371 --> 00:12:10.271


    The joke needs to stop.



    00:12:11.051 --> 00:12:16.011


    And I was trying to like test waters to see if there was any way...



    00:12:17.207 --> 00:12:21.647


    That there might be a change in thinking because I knew how my parents,



    00:12:21.887 --> 00:12:26.547


    I knew what they believed and I knew what they felt about gay people in general.



    00:12:26.907 --> 00:12:31.547


    And so I was looking for an avenue to find some kind of acceptance.



    00:12:31.647 --> 00:12:36.967


    And when I wasn't getting it, it just pushed me further and further back into the closet.



    00:12:37.527 --> 00:12:44.407


    Yeah. Was there a point, was there an age range when you finally understood



    00:12:44.407 --> 00:12:48.607


    the feelings that you had that you realized I am gay?



    00:12:49.107 --> 00:12:56.827


    I remember praying before my 16th birthday for God to make me straight.



    00:12:57.407 --> 00:13:00.947


    And, and part of that prayer was like to make the thoughts go away.



    00:13:01.307 --> 00:13:03.867


    Yes. And the 16th birthday came and it didn't.



    00:13:05.247 --> 00:13:08.287


    And so i was like all right you know and i remember



    00:13:08.287 --> 00:13:11.007


    i was in i was in my



    00:13:11.007 --> 00:13:14.867


    mid-20s it was the last woman i had dated and



    00:13:14.867 --> 00:13:21.107


    we had like gone out and it was like some kind of like pumpkin picking patch



    00:13:21.107 --> 00:13:24.927


    thing or whatever you know and you get the apple cider donuts or the pumpkin



    00:13:24.927 --> 00:13:30.667


    donuts or whatever and stuff and and i remember like brought her back to her



    00:13:30.667 --> 00:13:34.627


    house walked her to the door because all the things you're supposed to do kind of thing.



    00:13:34.767 --> 00:13:42.207


    And I drove home in tears because I couldn't, you know, I couldn't lead her on.



    00:13:42.327 --> 00:13:45.287


    My thoughts weren't, you know, with her.



    00:13:45.467 --> 00:13:51.747


    I certainly felt like I was at a point where I needed to truly acknowledge who



    00:13:51.747 --> 00:13:58.007


    I am and who I was attracted to because I had never acted on anything at this point.



    00:13:58.927 --> 00:14:02.687


    And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm lying to myself here.



    00:14:02.947 --> 00:14:09.467


    And I remember driving home in tears, thinking like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do?



    00:14:10.285 --> 00:14:15.265


    Hmm. Wow. And you were how old when that happened?



    00:14:16.005 --> 00:14:19.305


    24, 25. Okay. Okay.



    00:14:19.545 --> 00:14:24.105


    Had you been living away from home for a while at that point?



    00:14:24.105 --> 00:14:31.265


    So after I finished my undergraduate work, I had lived away from home for a couple of years.



    00:14:31.345 --> 00:14:39.365


    And then I moved back home to pursue a master's degree in teaching along with



    00:14:39.365 --> 00:14:44.225


    a mathematics minor, because I spent 14 years of my life as a mathematics teacher.



    00:14:44.225 --> 00:14:50.245


    So I had moved back home because my parents and my uncle made me this incredible



    00:14:50.245 --> 00:14:51.845


    offer I could not refuse,



    00:14:52.065 --> 00:14:56.765


    which was take two years off, go to school full time, we'll pay for it,



    00:14:56.785 --> 00:15:01.025


    and get your degree and get your career on the right path.



    00:15:01.285 --> 00:15:05.865


    And I was and will always be extremely grateful for that opportunity because



    00:15:05.865 --> 00:15:13.285


    it definitely set my career in motion after I had achieved those degrees. Yeah, absolutely.



    00:15:14.305 --> 00:15:21.085


    So walk me through then as we're kind of skipping along in this story,



    00:15:21.285 --> 00:15:28.825


    when you finally did decide to tell your parents and I guess I even preface



    00:15:28.825 --> 00:15:34.285


    that question by asking what led you to finally tell your parents? Yeah.



    00:15:35.025 --> 00:15:39.985


    So I'll back skip a little bit here for us to really share just a monumental point.



    00:15:40.085 --> 00:15:46.225


    There were a couple of friends of mine who were extremely supportive and very encouraging.



    00:15:46.385 --> 00:15:50.245


    They were a married couple, husband and wife. They had three kids.



    00:15:50.365 --> 00:15:54.465


    We used to hang out at their house a lot. We knew each other through some common



    00:15:54.465 --> 00:15:59.525


    activities and stuff. And I looked at my friend Donna one night and I said,



    00:15:59.665 --> 00:16:03.545


    I'm going to disappoint my parents bigger than my sister ever did.



    00:16:03.925 --> 00:16:08.365


    And she's like, John, you're like the perfect kid. Like, what could you possibly



    00:16:08.365 --> 00:16:10.965


    do that would disappoint them?



    00:16:11.205 --> 00:16:14.365


    And I looked at her and I said, I think I'm gay.



    00:16:15.585 --> 00:16:20.025


    And she looked at me and she goes, I thought you knew.



    00:16:21.385 --> 00:16:25.825


    And I was like, huh? And she goes, I just didn't think you told us.



    00:16:25.885 --> 00:16:31.705


    And at that point, Kevin, and this is where, when we think about grace and empathy



    00:16:31.705 --> 00:16:36.245


    and kindness, she stopped herself. And she was like.



    00:16:37.166 --> 00:16:43.426


    Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, come here. And she gave me this big hug and she's



    00:16:43.426 --> 00:16:47.466


    like, how do we be a great friend for you? Oh, wow. And yeah.



    00:16:47.926 --> 00:16:54.686


    And so what they ended up doing for me, and this is when we think about why



    00:16:54.686 --> 00:16:57.266


    allyship is so important.



    00:16:57.726 --> 00:17:02.026


    What they ended up doing for me because they loved me and they were friends



    00:17:02.026 --> 00:17:04.546


    of mine, they found a group.



    00:17:04.886 --> 00:17:08.946


    They found a support group about an hour north of where they lived.



    00:17:09.146 --> 00:17:12.946


    And they're like, let's get you some help. Let's get you some resources about



    00:17:12.946 --> 00:17:15.746


    if you decide to come out and what this is going to be like.



    00:17:16.526 --> 00:17:22.326


    And it was every Monday night at like seven o'clock. And I would go over to their house for dinner.



    00:17:22.786 --> 00:17:26.246


    And then the story I was telling was like, go over to the house for dinner.



    00:17:26.306 --> 00:17:27.206


    We're going to play some games.



    00:17:27.606 --> 00:17:30.126


    Well, it was like, go over to of their house, hop in the car,



    00:17:30.226 --> 00:17:33.206


    drive an hour north, go to this meeting for an hour and a half.



    00:17:33.386 --> 00:17:42.746


    And I got to meet other gay people and people who were very much like me and not like me in some ways.



    00:17:42.886 --> 00:17:47.366


    But I got to kind of understand what their coming out stories were like.



    00:17:47.526 --> 00:17:51.206


    In the process of being in that group, I met someone.



    00:17:51.486 --> 00:17:58.026


    And I will tell you, he was the third man I ever dated. And the other two,



    00:17:58.146 --> 00:17:59.166


    I didn't date for that long.



    00:18:06.146 --> 00:18:09.226


    Enough said, enough said. We've all been there. We've all been there.



    00:18:09.226 --> 00:18:11.066


    We all can relate, right? Doesn't matter whether you're gay,



    00:18:11.106 --> 00:18:12.986


    straight, whatever. Like we all have those people.



    00:18:15.246 --> 00:18:22.146


    So I meet this guy and we start dating. and I realized that we have a relationship



    00:18:22.146 --> 00:18:29.826


    and had dated him for about a year, maybe a little over a year.



    00:18:30.006 --> 00:18:34.526


    I had finished my graduate work. I had started a teaching position.



    00:18:35.286 --> 00:18:38.666


    It was the summer after that first year. I remember the date.



    00:18:38.746 --> 00:18:47.366


    It was July 10th, 1997 was the day I came out to my parents. and I.



    00:18:49.247 --> 00:18:59.567


    Knew in my heart that this was something I needed to do because I didn't want to lie to them anymore.



    00:19:00.127 --> 00:19:04.927


    And I figured they would probably be upset.



    00:19:05.087 --> 00:19:09.827


    I figured they would probably be angry and disappointed, but I didn't think



    00:19:09.827 --> 00:19:18.547


    they would cut me off given the way things had gone down with my sister. Yes. Wrong.



    00:19:19.787 --> 00:19:27.287


    I told my folks and I remember telling them and my mom started filling in the



    00:19:27.287 --> 00:19:32.967


    blanks and there was a lot of upset and a lot of tears.



    00:19:33.687 --> 00:19:39.667


    But here's where it was so important for me, Kevin, to show up in this way,



    00:19:39.747 --> 00:19:47.167


    because one of the things I promised myself, and this was with the help of a really great therapist,



    00:19:47.987 --> 00:19:53.847


    was that I would never say or do anything that I would regret because God forbid,



    00:19:53.907 --> 00:19:55.747


    this was the last time I saw my parents.



    00:19:56.167 --> 00:19:59.607


    I wanted to make sure that I never did or said anything I regretted.



    00:20:00.107 --> 00:20:05.487


    And so the last words I would always say to my parents was, I love you.



    00:20:06.427 --> 00:20:09.167


    Didn't expect them to say it back, but it was, I love you.



    00:20:09.547 --> 00:20:16.727


    And as you can imagine, there were some conversations and there were conversations



    00:20:16.727 --> 00:20:22.247


    around, this is a phase, you can't do this, who recruited you?



    00:20:22.987 --> 00:20:25.447


    I had to explain to them, nobody got a toaster on my behalf.



    00:20:26.227 --> 00:20:31.827


    And ultimately, it came down to an intervention.



    00:20:33.747 --> 00:20:41.927


    And if you've ever seen movies from like the late 1990s and the 2000s about interventions,



    00:20:41.927 --> 00:20:44.687


    interventions it pretty much played out that kind of way it



    00:20:44.687 --> 00:20:51.607


    does make for a good lifetime movie in that regard but you



    00:20:51.607 --> 00:20:54.887


    know i was still i was partnered with this



    00:20:54.887 --> 00:21:00.547


    person and had no intention of of leaving him at the time you know my mom my



    00:21:00.547 --> 00:21:07.047


    dad my oldest sister my uncle the priest were all in the room and my mom looked



    00:21:07.047 --> 00:21:09.847


    at me and she says you're going to need to make a decision it's either either



    00:21:09.847 --> 00:21:13.187


    us or him, because I can't keep living like this anymore.



    00:21:13.647 --> 00:21:17.307


    And that was probably one of the hardest days of my life.



    00:21:18.847 --> 00:21:25.167


    Wow. Wow. That is, I don't care what the situation is.



    00:21:25.967 --> 00:21:28.727


    That's a horrible thing to be faced with.



    00:21:29.887 --> 00:21:34.387


    Yeah. Ultimatums are done for very specific reasons.



    00:21:34.747 --> 00:21:38.887


    And as I've learned, learned my mom did what she felt was best.



    00:21:39.387 --> 00:21:46.167


    I don't fault her for that. I will never fault her for that because she did what she felt was best.



    00:21:47.591 --> 00:21:49.771


    Here's where it gets interesting.



    00:21:52.331 --> 00:21:57.551


    You ready? I'm ready. I'm ready. So here's where it gets even more interesting.



    00:21:57.951 --> 00:22:00.651


    So I'm essentially kicked out of the family.



    00:22:01.391 --> 00:22:06.471


    I had conversations with all four of them. Certainly couldn't debate Catholic



    00:22:06.471 --> 00:22:08.151


    theology and beliefs with any



    00:22:08.151 --> 00:22:12.251


    of them because I knew what I was doing was against the Catholic religion.



    00:22:12.251 --> 00:22:19.691


    Religion, but I also knew this was important about honoring who I am and me



    00:22:19.691 --> 00:22:23.451


    dealing with my own faith and religion at that point as well.



    00:22:23.651 --> 00:22:26.011


    That differed from how I was raised.



    00:22:26.631 --> 00:22:29.931


    We don't talk for 22 months.



    00:22:30.971 --> 00:22:35.491


    Now, my mom and dad had my phone number, my email. They knew how to get ahold



    00:22:35.491 --> 00:22:36.531


    of me if anything happened.



    00:22:36.651 --> 00:22:40.551


    And one day the phone rings and I see it's my dad. He says to me,



    00:22:40.651 --> 00:22:42.651


    your mom's been diagnosed with breast cancer.



    00:22:43.131 --> 00:22:47.111


    She's going to go into the hospital for a procedure. She wants to see you before



    00:22:47.111 --> 00:22:48.271


    she goes in the hospital.



    00:22:50.311 --> 00:22:53.831


    Okay, when do you want me to come down? So I drive down.



    00:22:54.051 --> 00:22:58.431


    Now I say to them, I said, look, so we're clear. I'm only coming down to meet



    00:22:58.431 --> 00:23:00.591


    with you and mom. There's nobody else here.



    00:23:01.471 --> 00:23:05.851


    Don't ambush me like you did the last time. No, just be your mom and me.



    00:23:05.931 --> 00:23:09.531


    Okay, great. So I see my mom and, you know,



    00:23:09.551 --> 00:23:16.211


    for anybody I can imagine when you're faced with a cancer diagnosis and you're



    00:23:16.211 --> 00:23:20.931


    faced with potentially your mortality at that point, you're scared.



    00:23:21.671 --> 00:23:25.231


    And for my mom, this was about let's clean up some loose ends.



    00:23:26.031 --> 00:23:29.011


    So we talk about what's going on and everything.



    00:23:29.191 --> 00:23:34.631


    And my mom says to me, are you still with him?



    00:23:34.631 --> 00:23:37.371


    Him she would never call my



    00:23:37.371 --> 00:23:40.851


    partner by name are you still with him and



    00:23:40.851 --> 00:23:43.491


    we had broken up we separated after about three and a



    00:23:43.491 --> 00:23:46.491


    half years and i said no and she



    00:23:46.491 --> 00:23:53.171


    goes well good and i go uh-uh you don't get to do that you don't get to gloat



    00:23:53.171 --> 00:23:59.411


    because relationships are hard and when relationships break up they're harder



    00:23:59.411 --> 00:24:03.651


    and when you go through a breakup in a relationship that's important to you



    00:24:03.651 --> 00:24:05.571


    and your family's not there for you,



    00:24:05.611 --> 00:24:08.271


    but your friends are, you don't get to gloat.



    00:24:08.451 --> 00:24:14.771


    Now, I'm sorry you have cancer. I want you to be well. I want this to be fully



    00:24:14.771 --> 00:24:15.751


    resolved and everything.



    00:24:16.251 --> 00:24:18.611


    So you and I need to work on our relationship.



    00:24:19.191 --> 00:24:22.571


    And if we're going to work on this relationship and start rebuilding it,



    00:24:22.651 --> 00:24:24.831


    here's the first thing that needs to happen.



    00:24:25.131 --> 00:24:31.511


    You do not get to pass disparaging remarks about me or my friends who were there



    00:24:31.511 --> 00:24:34.171


    for me when you chose not to be.



    00:24:36.191 --> 00:24:42.631


    I said, because they were there for me when you couldn't. And she looked at me, Kevin, and she goes,



    00:24:43.576 --> 00:24:47.196


    Okay. Now my mom's in her seventies.



    00:24:47.656 --> 00:24:54.996


    I get a 70 year old staunch Catholic woman to agree with me on something like,



    00:24:55.036 --> 00:24:56.796


    hell yeah, I'm going to take that as a win.



    00:25:02.816 --> 00:25:07.536


    Right. Yes. So at that point, I'm like, okay, take, take your win.



    00:25:07.676 --> 00:25:15.476


    Don't, don't push for anything more. And it was my mom's breast cancer that



    00:25:15.476 --> 00:25:23.956


    literally started us on a path to healing and resolving over the course of those



    00:25:23.956 --> 00:25:26.356


    next, you know, decade plus.



    00:25:27.956 --> 00:25:33.816


    Wow. Wow, wow, wow. What did happen going forward?



    00:25:33.856 --> 00:25:38.356


    Did your relationship get back to some type of normalcy?



    00:25:38.516 --> 00:25:41.536


    And even I want to ask even with the rest of your family.



    00:25:42.116 --> 00:25:49.596


    Yeah. So once my mom had her procedure done and we had agreed that we wanted



    00:25:49.596 --> 00:25:52.636


    to see each other, and I think that was the important piece here, right?



    00:25:52.696 --> 00:25:57.896


    We wanted, it was important for both of us to know that we wanted to see each



    00:25:57.896 --> 00:26:00.216


    other and see if there was a way to work some things out.



    00:26:00.456 --> 00:26:05.696


    So what we did, Kevin, was we started setting up some ground rules for what



    00:26:05.696 --> 00:26:07.336


    conversations would be like.



    00:26:07.596 --> 00:26:12.376


    And so some of those ground rules were when you ask a question,



    00:26:12.596 --> 00:26:15.696


    and this was for both of us, right? So it worked both ways.



    00:26:15.896 --> 00:26:21.856


    When a question is asked, that question is asked out of information and curiosity,



    00:26:21.976 --> 00:26:25.256


    not to be damning or abusive.



    00:26:25.756 --> 00:26:30.796


    Because I needed to acknowledge that my parents probably had some questions



    00:26:30.796 --> 00:26:35.756


    to how I got to this point and were curious, but I wanted to make sure that



    00:26:35.756 --> 00:26:39.656


    they were asking for information and not to be mean about it, right?



    00:26:39.836 --> 00:26:44.636


    So that was one thing. The second thing was, if at any point in time the conversation



    00:26:44.636 --> 00:26:49.996


    got to be too heated or uncomfortable, anybody could simply say,



    00:26:50.116 --> 00:26:51.696


    let's stop the conversation.



    00:26:52.096 --> 00:26:57.436


    And we would agree to stop it and set up another time to come back and discuss it.



    00:26:57.556 --> 00:27:02.596


    And the last thing that I honored was that the last thing I'm always going to



    00:27:02.596 --> 00:27:05.676


    say to you is I love you and eat it. Yes. Right.



    00:27:06.516 --> 00:27:15.016


    So once we set those things in place, it opened up for some probably unusual



    00:27:15.016 --> 00:27:18.816


    or different types of conversations, you know?



    00:27:18.856 --> 00:27:21.236


    Like, so my mom asked me one time and she said,



    00:27:22.070 --> 00:27:28.750


    how did you get this way? Mom, I kind of remember when I was younger having



    00:27:28.750 --> 00:27:31.370


    thoughts about being attracted to guys.



    00:27:31.630 --> 00:27:36.690


    Yeah, but when did that start? I don't know, like six? She's like, six?



    00:27:37.710 --> 00:27:42.010


    I'm like, yeah, like the first time I looked at somebody on TV and was like,



    00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:45.350


    okay. I didn't understand what it meant, right?



    00:27:45.510 --> 00:27:48.510


    But like, if you're trying to like tag something, I'm like, maybe,



    00:27:48.770 --> 00:27:50.350


    maybe, I like, I don't know.



    00:27:50.790 --> 00:27:52.710


    And she's like, well, it doesn't make sense to me. I'm like,



    00:27:52.770 --> 00:27:54.310


    well, does it have to make sense?



    00:27:54.450 --> 00:27:59.490


    Like, this is just, you know, you're attracted to dad because you're attracted to the opposite sex.



    00:27:59.690 --> 00:28:02.450


    You know, I'm not attracted to the opposite sex.



    00:28:02.870 --> 00:28:05.830


    It was difficult for them to get their head around.



    00:28:06.030 --> 00:28:11.570


    But if you remember that day when I was 10, this bugged my mother because she



    00:28:11.570 --> 00:28:14.930


    looks at me one day and she says to me, I need to ask you a question.



    00:28:15.350 --> 00:28:18.250


    Okay, is that question for information or you're curious, yes.



    00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:23.810


    You're trying to be abusive or argument. No, go ahead, ask the question.



    00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:30.230


    Do you remember when your sister got pregnant? Uh-huh. And I sat you on my lap.



    00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:33.690


    Uh-huh. And I told you that if you, uh-huh.



    00:28:33.990 --> 00:28:37.330


    Did that make you? Absolutely, it did.



    00:28:38.890 --> 00:28:44.330


    My dad, Kevin goes, and I go, oh, come on, that was perfectly over the plate.



    00:28:44.430 --> 00:28:46.390


    How do I not hit that out of the ballpark? Come on.



    00:28:48.170 --> 00:28:52.550


    And then we have this moment of laughter and I look at my mom and I hold my



    00:28:52.550 --> 00:28:58.370


    mom's hand and I go, all joking aside, no, that did not make me gay.



    00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:02.810


    And she was like, okay, because I've worried about that. And I go,



    00:29:02.910 --> 00:29:05.890


    of course she did. Because you can't let anything go.



    00:29:08.790 --> 00:29:16.950


    So it was really important for me, Kevin, that I used my gift of humor to lighten up some situations,



    00:29:17.130 --> 00:29:22.130


    but there were times when conversations got heated and we walked away and we



    00:29:22.130 --> 00:29:28.910


    said I love you and we made it a point to come back down and have another conversation at the house.



    00:29:29.731 --> 00:29:35.531


    Things were said, hurtful things were said, but because you love and because



    00:29:35.531 --> 00:29:40.771


    there's an opportunity to forgive and you try to build some kind of awareness,



    00:29:41.171 --> 00:29:46.011


    you know, one of the things I learned as part of this was the biggest,



    00:29:46.131 --> 00:29:50.211


    I'm going to use the word mistake, and I know some people may challenge me on



    00:29:50.211 --> 00:29:53.211


    that, but it's the best word I can use in this context.



    00:29:53.211 --> 00:30:01.171


    The biggest mistake I feel like I made in my coming out journey was that I expected



    00:30:01.171 --> 00:30:08.611


    my parents to fully accept and believe in me on the spot without any struggle.



    00:30:09.811 --> 00:30:15.431


    And that was wrong of me to do. They had their own journey to travel when it



    00:30:15.431 --> 00:30:22.031


    came to accepting that their youngest and their only son was gay.



    00:30:22.811 --> 00:30:28.511


    And for me to expect them to just be like, okay, that's great.



    00:30:28.611 --> 00:30:29.711


    When do we get to meet your partner?



    00:30:30.151 --> 00:30:35.691


    It just wasn't gonna happen. It was an unrealistic expectation on my part.



    00:30:36.011 --> 00:30:41.971


    And so what I had to do was I had to learn to give them grace and give them



    00:30:41.971 --> 00:30:47.451


    opportunities to question without me getting upset or angry with them,



    00:30:48.071 --> 00:30:54.131


    but to help them along their journey so they could get to wherever they could.



    00:30:54.731 --> 00:30:58.311


    In the process of all of this, keep in mind it came out in 1997.



    00:30:58.811 --> 00:31:06.191


    My dad passed away unexpectedly in 2003, or 2004, sorry.



    00:31:07.211 --> 00:31:11.471


    And the last thing I ever said to him was, I love you.



    00:31:12.431 --> 00:31:16.671


    That is a gift. I had been healing the relationship with my parents.



    00:31:17.411 --> 00:31:20.571


    My uncle, no. My sister, eh.



    00:31:20.971 --> 00:31:26.571


    Not really, because it was so important for me to work on my relationship with my folks first.



    00:31:27.911 --> 00:31:36.791


    My mother loses her husband and her two brothers within 18 months. Wow.



    00:31:37.411 --> 00:31:41.331


    My mom was married to my dad for 55 years.



    00:31:42.171 --> 00:31:47.311


    And of course, when death happens, sometimes families rally. Right.



    00:31:48.213 --> 00:31:53.653


    And I remember looking at my sister, because the one sister who had gotten pregnant,



    00:31:53.733 --> 00:31:54.813


    she's out of the picture.



    00:31:55.133 --> 00:31:59.193


    But I looked at my sister and I said, look, whatever's going on between us,



    00:31:59.253 --> 00:32:01.593


    we put this aside right now. We're here for mom.



    00:32:01.993 --> 00:32:04.653


    Like our common goal is we take care of mom.



    00:32:04.993 --> 00:32:09.613


    My sister looked at me and she went, got it. And so that's where we started



    00:32:09.613 --> 00:32:13.313


    healing our relationship a little bit in that regard. Wow.



    00:32:14.433 --> 00:32:22.853


    Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. In the year since then, has the relationship between you



    00:32:22.853 --> 00:32:25.993


    and your sisters gotten any better or stayed the same?



    00:32:26.413 --> 00:32:33.153


    So there is no relationship with my younger sister.



    00:32:33.493 --> 00:32:36.793


    That, you know, everything kind of went down at 10.



    00:32:36.953 --> 00:32:41.853


    I firmly believe, just like my parents did, She did what she needed to do,



    00:32:41.873 --> 00:32:46.213


    which was best for her, her husband and her family. And that meant she walked away.



    00:32:46.693 --> 00:32:50.893


    I obviously don't know all the conversations that happened, but based on my



    00:32:50.893 --> 00:32:53.773


    own experiences, probably didn't go too well.



    00:32:54.253 --> 00:33:02.113


    And so while there's no relationship there, I certainly respect and understand



    00:33:02.113 --> 00:33:04.753


    the decisions my sister had to make.



    00:33:04.933 --> 00:33:08.733


    With my older sister that's 18 years older than me, there is a relationship



    00:33:08.733 --> 00:33:13.193


    there. You know, you get older and people kind of, you know,



    00:33:13.193 --> 00:33:17.213


    gravitate in their own ways kind of a thing, but she's still a part of my life.



    00:33:17.313 --> 00:33:19.533


    So, you know, that's fine as well.



    00:33:19.973 --> 00:33:25.133


    But, you know, I think one thing I do want to just kind of extend here a little



    00:33:25.133 --> 00:33:29.813


    bit, Kevin, is that one of the things I am most proud of in this life is the



    00:33:29.813 --> 00:33:31.533


    relationship my mom and I had.



    00:33:33.273 --> 00:33:37.613


    And when you think back on the story I've shared with you today,



    00:33:37.713 --> 00:33:40.553


    you're like, gosh, how do you get there?



    00:33:41.013 --> 00:33:48.433


    Six months after my dad passed, my mom looks at me and she was in her late seventies.



    00:33:48.793 --> 00:33:53.273


    She looks at me, we're standing in her house and she goes, I don't know how



    00:33:53.273 --> 00:33:55.213


    you do it. And I said, do what?



    00:33:55.653 --> 00:33:58.353


    And she goes, be alone. Be alone.



    00:33:59.196 --> 00:34:04.576


    I said, what do you mean? She said, your father has been gone for six months.



    00:34:05.476 --> 00:34:08.956


    Loneliness sucks. From a 78-year-old woman.



    00:34:09.556 --> 00:34:14.956


    Loneliness sucks. And I said, mom, I can't imagine what you're going through.



    00:34:14.956 --> 00:34:21.496


    He said, but you and dad loved each other for 55 years.



    00:34:21.776 --> 00:34:28.176


    He said, you had a relationship where you two liked and loved each other.



    00:34:29.056 --> 00:34:37.036


    You were best friends. I go, and I know you struggle with who I am and who I



    00:34:37.036 --> 00:34:39.076


    want to be in a relationship with.



    00:34:39.216 --> 00:34:42.036


    Why am I not entitled to the same happiness?



    00:34:42.816 --> 00:34:47.436


    Hmm. And she looked at me and she goes, I get it.



    00:34:48.036 --> 00:34:51.896


    Now for a 78 year old woman, like win number two.



    00:34:52.536 --> 00:34:59.156


    Like I get it, okay? So my mom lived for seven years after my dad passed.



    00:34:59.956 --> 00:35:05.896


    And my sister and I rallied. My sister would take care of Sunday dinners and



    00:35:05.896 --> 00:35:07.316


    medical appointments and things.



    00:35:07.416 --> 00:35:12.416


    And I would take care of the finances and vacations and stuff like that.



    00:35:12.416 --> 00:35:16.796


    And trips to Atlantic City where we would sit next to each other at slot machines



    00:35:16.796 --> 00:35:18.676


    and just have the best conversation.



    00:35:19.696 --> 00:35:23.856


    Because my mom loved a really good conversation. The really sweet part of this



    00:35:23.856 --> 00:35:28.356


    story is, Kevin, is that over 15 years ago, I met my now husband.



    00:35:28.716 --> 00:35:32.736


    And when I met Richard, my mom was curious.



    00:35:34.396 --> 00:35:38.416


    And we dated long distance for two years. I was living in New Jersey.



    00:35:38.496 --> 00:35:40.396


    Richard was living in Washington, D.C.



    00:35:41.796 --> 00:35:44.876


    And she's like, why are you spending so much time with this guy?



    00:35:45.716 --> 00:35:48.716


    And I was like, I like hanging out with him. You know, he's funny,



    00:35:48.736 --> 00:35:52.196


    smart, he's intelligent, you know, good people.



    00:35:52.496 --> 00:35:57.516


    And we had been dating for about four months. And my mother says to me, when do I get to meet him?



    00:35:58.516 --> 00:36:03.196


    You could have knocked me over with a feather. Like, not.



    00:36:04.229 --> 00:36:09.049


    You want to meet him? Yeah, I want to meet him. He's important to you. I want to meet him. Okay.



    00:36:10.229 --> 00:36:18.269


    So we met on her turf. And her turf was the Borgata Casino in Atlantic City.



    00:36:21.569 --> 00:36:25.089


    That's where my mother said to me, she goes, when I die, are you going to come



    00:36:25.089 --> 00:36:27.789


    to the cemetery and visit? I said, no, I don't like cemeteries,



    00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:29.389


    but I'll come to the Borgata three times a year.



    00:36:34.229 --> 00:36:39.989


    I love it. So, right. So, so we meet and, and so I'm like, I'm prepping Richard



    00:36:39.989 --> 00:36:41.889


    the whole time. I'm like, oh, kid gloves.



    00:36:42.069 --> 00:36:44.209


    You know, I don't know where my mom's going to be with all this. Right.



    00:36:44.449 --> 00:36:47.009


    She meets him. She's like, let's go play some machines. Right.



    00:36:47.089 --> 00:36:49.349


    She's teaching him how to play these slot machines and stuff.



    00:36:49.629 --> 00:36:53.929


    We had a nearly three hour dinner.



    00:36:54.449 --> 00:37:00.349


    She was asking him about his work and his growing up and what he did and everything. thing.



    00:37:00.849 --> 00:37:06.049


    And we were getting ready to leave and he had gone to the restroom and I'm standing



    00:37:06.049 --> 00:37:08.429


    there with my mom and she looks at me.



    00:37:08.829 --> 00:37:12.869


    I'll never forget this. She goes, he's very nice.



    00:37:13.209 --> 00:37:18.949


    I have a feeling you two will be good friends for a very long time. I got my mom's blessing.



    00:37:20.089 --> 00:37:27.149


    In that moment, I got my mom's blessing as a, you know,



    00:37:27.209 --> 00:37:34.849


    80-year-old woman who lived this life and struggled with her challenges and



    00:37:34.849 --> 00:37:39.369


    her life and her beliefs and the upset and the tumult that she's had in her life.



    00:37:39.729 --> 00:37:44.949


    For her to look at me and say, I have a feeling you two are going to be really



    00:37:44.949 --> 00:37:47.209


    good friends for a very long time.



    00:37:48.049 --> 00:37:54.069


    I felt like everything came full circle. How do you ask for more?



    00:37:55.596 --> 00:38:02.416


    And so Richard got included in family gatherings because Richard lost both of



    00:38:02.416 --> 00:38:05.276


    his parents very, very young due to cancer.



    00:38:06.196 --> 00:38:11.456


    And so he found himself at like his mid-30s having lost both of his parents.



    00:38:12.156 --> 00:38:18.976


    And so Richard got a sense of like, he got a motherly figure in his life who



    00:38:18.976 --> 00:38:24.476


    recognized and celebrated him for his role in my life.



    00:38:25.596 --> 00:38:30.976


    You know, we could never talk like my mom would sometimes get on the habit of



    00:38:30.976 --> 00:38:37.036


    like trying to figure out mechanics, you know, it's not a conversation you want



    00:38:37.036 --> 00:38:38.456


    to have with your parents, right?



    00:38:38.616 --> 00:38:41.536


    I don't want to know about your sex life. Don't ask me about mine.



    00:38:42.496 --> 00:38:45.796


    Exactly. So that's where the ground rules came into play. I was like,



    00:38:45.816 --> 00:38:47.416


    mom, we're not going to talk about that.



    00:38:47.956 --> 00:38:53.076


    Yes. But it was Thanksgiving dinners and Christmas dinners and birthdays and



    00:38:53.076 --> 00:38:56.436


    Mother's Day and and things like that, where he was there.



    00:38:57.296 --> 00:39:02.676


    My mom, it'll be, let's see, 13 years this July that she passed.



    00:39:03.796 --> 00:39:09.656


    And even though he didn't get a lot of time with her, at the same time,



    00:39:09.676 --> 00:39:15.256


    he recognized how special and important that was, as did I.



    00:39:15.956 --> 00:39:23.056


    And I will always, always, always be forever grateful and love him even more



    00:39:23.056 --> 00:39:26.056


    for the fact he was so kind to my mom in that way.



    00:39:26.736 --> 00:39:33.116


    Yeah. You know what two words keep coming to me when I'm hearing this story



    00:39:33.116 --> 00:39:38.116


    between you and your mother are mutual love and respect.



    00:39:38.736 --> 00:39:47.236


    Yeah. And I think to myself, because both of you adopted mutual love and respect together,



    00:39:47.863 --> 00:39:55.583


    That was what made it possible for you to create this relationship together.



    00:39:55.963 --> 00:40:03.883


    That when you tell that story, I mean, that is absolutely just the biggest tearjerker



    00:40:03.883 --> 00:40:06.503


    in the world because of how beautiful it is.



    00:40:07.343 --> 00:40:12.463


    Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. Wow. Yeah. It's a great way of phrasing it that way,



    00:40:12.523 --> 00:40:18.223


    because we could not have shown up for each other if it hadn't been for that



    00:40:18.223 --> 00:40:19.423


    mutual love and respect,



    00:40:19.523 --> 00:40:23.323


    because there were tough conversations to be had.



    00:40:23.523 --> 00:40:29.803


    There were struggles around lifelong beliefs and religious principles and tenets



    00:40:29.803 --> 00:40:36.343


    and, you know, combating stereotypes and fear. Let's talk about fear.



    00:40:36.743 --> 00:40:40.903


    You know, I come out in 1997 to them.



    00:40:41.443 --> 00:40:46.263


    AIDS was still very much part of the conversation.



    00:40:46.943 --> 00:40:49.283


    And, you know, my mom's like, you're going to die.



    00:40:50.023 --> 00:40:52.183


    We're all going to die, you know?



    00:40:52.183 --> 00:40:54.943


    And she's like, no, no, you're going to die of AIDS. God, I hope not.



    00:40:55.243 --> 00:41:00.923


    You know, but it was that kind of fear and everything there that you think about



    00:41:00.923 --> 00:41:06.383


    having these intentional conversations that move relationships forward.



    00:41:07.203 --> 00:41:13.323


    That was always the goal. How do we move this relationship forward based on this conversation?



    00:41:13.783 --> 00:41:18.203


    Moving the conversation forward doesn't always mean that you're hugging it out



    00:41:18.203 --> 00:41:23.023


    and it's rosy and cheery and everything's great and wraps up in a 22-minute sitcom.



    00:41:23.383 --> 00:41:29.363


    What it means is that you've made some kind of progress to a clear decision.



    00:41:30.663 --> 00:41:34.103


    And I will always be grateful for the fact that my parents...



    00:41:35.017 --> 00:41:40.277


    Honored that process, even as difficult as it was for them. Yeah, absolutely.



    00:41:40.717 --> 00:41:49.117


    You've talked a lot about showing up and you have kind of a foundation for showing up.



    00:41:49.217 --> 00:41:52.297


    I believe you have it broken down by six different principles.



    00:41:52.577 --> 00:41:55.217


    Will you dive into that for us?



    00:41:55.517 --> 00:42:01.957


    Yeah. So because this coming out journey and building the relationships with



    00:42:01.957 --> 00:42:05.157


    my my folks was so important.



    00:42:06.057 --> 00:42:09.917


    I would have been remissed had I not taken the lessons learned from those experiences



    00:42:09.917 --> 00:42:12.897


    and figured out where else they applied in my life.



    00:42:13.977 --> 00:42:18.917


    And so when I talk about showing up, I do break it down into six strategies,



    00:42:19.037 --> 00:42:23.457


    and they are the S stands for setting ground rules.



    00:42:23.937 --> 00:42:27.877


    The H stands for having intentional conversations.



    00:42:29.037 --> 00:42:34.437


    The O stands for owning where you are. The W, welcome new opportunities.



    00:42:35.257 --> 00:42:37.597


    The U, use your genius.



    00:42:38.557 --> 00:42:43.437


    The P stands for protect and promote your brand. And in my book,



    00:42:43.457 --> 00:42:46.997


    Show Up, Six Strategies to Lead a More Energetic and Impactful Career,



    00:42:47.877 --> 00:42:51.997


    I tell the story of my coming out in the first part of the book.



    00:42:52.157 --> 00:42:57.477


    But in the second part of the book, I take these six strategies and I walk them



    00:42:57.477 --> 00:43:03.577


    through where they've applied in this coming out journey, but also how they've applied in my career.



    00:43:04.597 --> 00:43:09.317


    So you don't have to do the show up strategies in order. And when I work with



    00:43:09.317 --> 00:43:12.337


    people on that, we typically start with the O and the W.



    00:43:12.837 --> 00:43:19.897


    So the O, owning where you are. For me, yeah, I had to own the fact that I recognize



    00:43:19.897 --> 00:43:22.337


    and understand that I'm a gay male.



    00:43:23.125 --> 00:43:30.885


    And that meant owning a big part of my life that I kept hidden for a very, very long time.



    00:43:31.585 --> 00:43:36.545


    The W in terms of welcoming new opportunities, what that meant along the way



    00:43:36.545 --> 00:43:40.585


    was, who do I get to meet? What do I get to learn?



    00:43:41.125 --> 00:43:46.325


    Where do I get to learn from somebody else's coming out journey or experience



    00:43:46.325 --> 00:43:51.965


    or circumstance or situation that has helped them grow to where they are.



    00:43:52.485 --> 00:43:56.385


    The setting ground rules, we've talked about that before. Setting ground rules



    00:43:56.385 --> 00:43:58.125


    simply means that we know how to play.



    00:43:58.285 --> 00:44:01.805


    And when we know how to play, we don't have to walk on eggshells.



    00:44:01.805 --> 00:44:05.725


    When I set those ground rules with my folks about any conversations we were



    00:44:05.725 --> 00:44:09.785


    going to have, I could call them out and be like, that's getting abusive.



    00:44:10.605 --> 00:44:15.325


    And they would redirect, or they would call me out on something and be like, that's getting nasty.



    00:44:15.665 --> 00:44:21.585


    You're right. Let's redirect. Having intentional conversations move the relationship forward.



    00:44:22.085 --> 00:44:27.565


    But the U and the P are two interesting ones because using your genius.



    00:44:27.945 --> 00:44:34.705


    So I shared a little bit earlier that I used my gift of humor to help in those situations.



    00:44:35.205 --> 00:44:43.265


    So for me, if I could get people to laugh, especially if I could get my parents



    00:44:43.265 --> 00:44:45.385


    to laugh, things felt lighter.



    00:44:45.765 --> 00:44:49.985


    So might it be a little self-deprecating at times? Sure.



    00:44:50.325 --> 00:44:57.065


    But when we can bring humor and appropriate humor into a situation, it can make it lighter.



    00:44:57.345 --> 00:45:00.485


    And then the P about protecting and promoting your brand.



    00:45:00.745 --> 00:45:06.385


    Kevin, there were things that people said to me, particularly my uncle,



    00:45:06.525 --> 00:45:15.065


    my sister, my parents, that were attacks on my brand and my reputation.



    00:45:15.945 --> 00:45:22.045


    That I had to stand up for myself and call out and say, that's incorrect,



    00:45:22.385 --> 00:45:26.305


    you're wrong, and I'm not gonna allow you to talk to me that way.



    00:45:26.505 --> 00:45:32.905


    So when you think about these six strategies, what if we took them and we applied



    00:45:32.905 --> 00:45:37.905


    them to our careers or we applied them to any relationship that we have?



    00:45:37.905 --> 00:45:43.245


    When I work with people as an executive and career coach, we talk about these



    00:45:43.245 --> 00:45:45.885


    show of six strategies in very different capacities.



    00:45:46.345 --> 00:45:51.585


    And so how do you set ground rules for your meetings with your team and your direct reports?



    00:45:52.065 --> 00:45:56.785


    How do you have intentional conversations with your leadership about a particular



    00:45:56.785 --> 00:46:00.545


    workflow or about where your career is progressing?



    00:46:02.015 --> 00:46:06.755


    How do you use your genius and leverage that to make your project better,



    00:46:06.855 --> 00:46:11.655


    your organization better, your leadership better, your career better?



    00:46:12.195 --> 00:46:18.135


    How do you protect and promote your brand and your reputation internally as well as externally?



    00:46:18.655 --> 00:46:22.475


    Because Jeff Bezos has one of the best quotes about branding I've ever heard,



    00:46:22.535 --> 00:46:25.775


    which is your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room.



    00:46:26.615 --> 00:46:31.055


    And then of course, owning where you are and welcoming those new opportunities.



    00:46:31.055 --> 00:46:37.595


    And so I wrote the book, Show Up, because I kept hearing people say to me at



    00:46:37.595 --> 00:46:39.475


    work, I need to show up differently.



    00:46:39.755 --> 00:46:45.775


    What does that mean? And so the Show Up Six strategies provide a benchmark or



    00:46:45.775 --> 00:46:47.435


    a foundation, if you will,



    00:46:47.615 --> 00:46:52.075


    about when we talk about showing up, tap into one or more of those strategies



    00:46:52.075 --> 00:46:58.815


    and be clear about how you choose to show up in your life and career. Yeah.



    00:46:59.375 --> 00:47:02.455


    Wow. I love it so much.



    00:47:02.775 --> 00:47:09.335


    The story that you shared with your mother, and really, we could say your entire



    00:47:09.335 --> 00:47:15.855


    life story, how has that impacted the person you are today, both personally,



    00:47:16.075 --> 00:47:17.515


    professionally, and what you do?



    00:47:17.695 --> 00:47:20.515


    How do you feel like that has impacted you?



    00:47:20.715 --> 00:47:29.535


    There's certainly a part about strength and resiliency that rings very, very true for me.



    00:47:29.655 --> 00:47:33.495


    You know, everybody has something in life that they work through.



    00:47:34.450 --> 00:47:40.230


    Or they face. And I had a neighbor growing up who said to me that everybody's



    00:47:40.230 --> 00:47:42.170


    problems were like pairs of shoes.



    00:47:42.430 --> 00:47:46.170


    And if everybody in the world threw their shoes into a corner and you could



    00:47:46.170 --> 00:47:49.790


    pick whichever pair of shoes you wanted, you would always go back and pick your



    00:47:49.790 --> 00:47:51.350


    own because they're the most comfortable.



    00:47:52.710 --> 00:47:59.230


    Right? And so for me, I recognize that my coming out wasn't easy.



    00:47:59.230 --> 00:48:01.950


    Coming out isn't easy for anybody.



    00:48:02.810 --> 00:48:09.710


    And yes, we sit in 2024 here and things are certainly different than what they



    00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:17.290


    were in 1997 and 1977 and all, but nevertheless, there's still a lot of work to be done.



    00:48:17.290 --> 00:48:20.750


    But when we have those conversations, we're vulnerable.



    00:48:21.590 --> 00:48:27.530


    And if we're met with grace and kindness, we can be met with disagreement on



    00:48:27.530 --> 00:48:29.170


    a lot of things in life. That's okay.



    00:48:29.890 --> 00:48:34.630


    But it's about showing up to those conversations with grace that allow you to



    00:48:34.630 --> 00:48:37.490


    see where the conversation takes you.



    00:48:37.610 --> 00:48:43.570


    Because I've had those conversations in my life, I very rarely shy away from



    00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:46.430


    a difficult conversation. You can ask my husband.



    00:48:51.430 --> 00:48:55.010


    Because he knows he knows i'll be the one to kind of bring something up first



    00:48:55.010 --> 00:48:58.430


    or whatever or if if something else is happening i'll be like do you want me



    00:48:58.430 --> 00:49:00.450


    to take care of it he's like dear god no.



    00:49:01.990 --> 00:49:05.810


    Don't need you to take care of that right there's a reason why we go to buy



    00:49:05.810 --> 00:49:12.410


    cars i go alone on you know the last time he came with me but yeah it's it's that kind of thing where



    00:49:12.610 --> 00:49:17.770


    I don't shy away from conversations because I know that once you have them,



    00:49:17.950 --> 00:49:20.110


    there's a whole lot better on the other side.



    00:49:20.630 --> 00:49:28.210


    Yeah, I love it. Before I ask you my last question, tell everybody where they



    00:49:28.210 --> 00:49:32.070


    can find your book, where they can get plugged into your world,



    00:49:32.230 --> 00:49:34.250


    where's the best places for us to send them.



    00:49:34.330 --> 00:49:38.830


    And of course, everything you mentioned, I'll be sure is in the show notes for easy access.



    00:49:39.270 --> 00:49:43.410


    Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for that. So you can find my books on Amazon.



    00:49:43.730 --> 00:49:47.930


    So Show Up, Six Strategies to Lead a More Energetic and Impactful Career.



    00:49:48.310 --> 00:49:53.870


    It's at definitely a discounted price right now on Amazon. So feel free to go grab that.



    00:49:54.070 --> 00:49:59.390


    My other book is called Your Mid-Career GPS, Four Steps to Figuring Out What's Next.



    00:49:59.890 --> 00:50:05.710


    And there is an updated part to the Show Up, Six Strategies in the back of that book.



    00:50:05.890 --> 00:50:12.750


    People can find me on LinkedIn at John Nerrell. It's J-O-H-N-N-E-R-A-L.



    00:50:12.990 --> 00:50:18.150


    You can also find me on my website at johnnerrell.com. And I host a podcast



    00:50:18.150 --> 00:50:23.850


    called the Mid-Career GPS Podcast, which Kevin, I was honored to have you on the show as well.



    00:50:23.990 --> 00:50:27.670


    And you can find the Mid-Career GPS Podcast wherever you listen.



    00:50:28.563 --> 00:50:35.003


    Yeah, fantastic, fantastic. Highly encourage any of you to get plugged into this guy's world.



    00:50:35.103 --> 00:50:37.943


    As you can tell, the guy is just incredible.



    00:50:38.303 --> 00:50:43.323


    You are incredible, John. And so, man, definitely check out the show notes and



    00:50:43.323 --> 00:50:45.743


    get plugged into everything you just mentioned.



    00:50:45.983 --> 00:50:52.043


    My last question for you is I would love for you to talk to the person who's been listening today.



    00:50:52.043 --> 00:50:59.583


    And maybe they are in the position you were back in your 20s,



    00:50:59.583 --> 00:51:01.583


    discovering about themselves,



    00:51:02.163 --> 00:51:06.543


    trying to understand what it means, trying to understand how the rest of the



    00:51:06.543 --> 00:51:12.963


    world is going to feel when they let out that secret. What would you say to that person?



    00:51:13.343 --> 00:51:18.863


    Build your network. Build your support system. There are people out there who



    00:51:18.863 --> 00:51:24.763


    love you and care about you and see you, and it's important to pull them close.



    00:51:25.043 --> 00:51:31.103


    Whatever it is that you believe you need to talk about or you need to share,



    00:51:31.403 --> 00:51:38.423


    you've got to build your support network because they're going to be there for you when you need them.



    00:51:38.423 --> 00:51:45.923


    And I am extremely grateful for the people who have been, were,



    00:51:46.143 --> 00:51:51.083


    and continue to be part of my support system because they mean the world to



    00:51:51.083 --> 00:51:53.023


    me. They are everything to me.



    00:51:53.943 --> 00:51:59.723


    And when you have that, there is strength, there is grit, there is grace,



    00:51:59.943 --> 00:52:07.703


    there is inspiration to help you have that conversation when you are ready.



    00:52:08.423 --> 00:52:14.383


    And that's the key thing. It is when you are ready that your network is there



    00:52:14.383 --> 00:52:18.323


    for you whenever you need them. Yeah, I love it. I love it.



    00:52:18.563 --> 00:52:23.463


    John, I want to thank you not just for being on the podcast today,



    00:52:23.543 --> 00:52:30.283


    but I want to thank you for being so honest, so real. And at the same time...



    00:52:31.300 --> 00:52:41.380


    Your ability to take a really tough subject and with your gift of humor,



    00:52:41.520 --> 00:52:48.480


    of having us laugh right along with you while at the same time tearing up when you teared up.



    00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:54.420


    It means the world to me to have you on the podcast and for you to feel so open,



    00:52:54.460 --> 00:52:58.740


    to be so honest, all with the goal that there's somebody listening today,



    00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:04.780


    you know, that they take something that you said and can put it in play in their own life.



    00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.960


    And so, so truly in the most heartfelt way, thank you so much.



    00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:12.500


    Well, thank you, Kevin. That means the world to me.



    00:53:12.620 --> 00:53:18.340


    And I receive that with an open heart. And, you know, you create a space in



    00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:24.140


    this world for people to come and share their story in part because of your



    00:53:24.140 --> 00:53:26.600


    story and what you've gone through as well.



    00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:32.400


    I am honored and so grateful to add to this conversation to you and for everyone



    00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.960


    who has listened today just to be a part of it. Thank you for all the work you do. You're amazing.



    00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:42.260


    Oh, thank you so much. But for you listening today, my hope,



    00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:47.660


    my prayer is that something said today, it's an impact on you,



    00:53:47.780 --> 00:53:49.980


    that it made a light bulb go off.



    00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:56.140


    Or maybe you can't help but think of a friend who you know that they could benefit



    00:53:56.140 --> 00:53:58.040


    from hearing our conversation today.



    00:53:58.200 --> 00:54:02.120


    Be sure to share it with them. That's how we keep the love of this podcast alive.



    00:54:02.540 --> 00:54:06.700


    So my friend, get out there, take on the day, enjoy the day.



    00:54:06.700 --> 00:54:10.140


    This is Kevin Lowe with Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.



    00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:28.886


    Music.




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