Show Transcript

Are you wondering if today's episode is really for you? Well,

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I'm going to make it really easy. I got three criteria.

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First, are you human? Second, do you have a family?

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And three, have you ever gotten in an argument, a disagreement,

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had a rift in the family that has caused a little bit of drama?

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If you checked those three boxes, then yes, today's episode is indeed for you.

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When I sat down to interview today's guest, John Nero, I thought it was a coming out story.

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It took him 18 years to come out to his parents that he was gay.

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And I thought that was the highlight of this interview.

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But the fact is true that it wasn't.

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The highlight is what comes next. It is mending of relationships.

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It's bringing a family back together. It is him trying to show you what it means to be a family.

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You might argue, you might say some things that you wish you didn't,

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but the fact is true, it is a relationship and sometimes it takes a little bit of work.

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My hope in you hearing John's story is, well, that it might be that spark to

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inspire you to maybe reach out to your family.

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Maybe there's been a rift for

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way too long, and I'm here to tell you that this life is way too short.

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In our family, they mean everything.

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So if you have a rift in your family with a family member, I hope that today's

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episode not only inspires you, but also gives you the tools to reach out to

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that person and to start to mend those broken fences.

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Today is episode 286. Today is my interview with John Darrell.

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What's up, my friend, and welcome to Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.

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I am your host, Kevin Lowe.

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20 years ago, I awoke from a life-saving surgery only to find that I was left completely blind.

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And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.

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And here on this podcast, I want to share those insights with you.

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Because friend, if you are still searching for your purpose,

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still trying to understand why, or still left searching for that next right

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path to take, we'll consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from

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where you are to where you want to be.

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Today's prayer request comes from a woman who you will actually be hearing from later this summer.

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Her name is Dr. Robin Hall.

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I just had the pleasure of speaking with her the other day about being a guest here on the podcast.

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And while we were talking, she mentioned her friend, Julie. Julie and her friend

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has been suffering from brain cancer.

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And so I wanted today to ask you to help me in praying for Julie to,

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of course, pray for healing, but also for comfort and peace,

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both for her and for her friends and family.

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Again, her name is Julie, and it would be amazing if you could help me in praying for her today.

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And remember, if you have something that you would love to have some others

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helping you in praying for, well, send it to me via text message to 877-749-8178.

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That's right. You can send your prayer request to be featured on an upcoming

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episode of the podcast as a text message to 877-749-8178.

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As you listen to today's interview with John Nero, as I said in the intro,

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he's going to give you some really amazing techniques that he's learned in his

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own life that are going to help you with your relationships.

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But one thing he didn't mention is something that I want to tell you is that

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if you have a rift in the family,

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what better way to reach out to that person than by giving them a gift from MyPillow. Absolutely.

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And here is the cool thing. They are going to think that, oh my gosh,

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they just spent this kind of money on me.

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But they didn't know that you had promo code Kevin, and that got you access

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to the $25 extravaganza.

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Yes, some of their very best products are on sale for only $25.

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All you have to do is use promo code Kevin. when shopping at MyPillow.com to

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get access to those amazing deals.

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So with that, it's time for you to get shopping, fixing some relationships,

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and having everybody sleeping a little bit better.

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I had a great childhood. I mean, we never wanted for anything in that regard.

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I grew up along the Jersey Shore, a couple blocks away from the ocean,

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which was a great place to grow up.

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And not like the MTV Jersey Shore, but a little different than that.

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I have two older sisters.

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My parents had me a little bit later in their life.

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So my mom was three weeks before her 43rd birthday when she had me.

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I was definitely a change of life baby for both of them.

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And yeah, it was just I grew up in a very staunch Catholic household.

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Religion was very important growing up. I had an uncle who was a Catholic priest.

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East. He was my mom's brother who had a very predominant presence in the family, I'll say.

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You know, it was just, it was, it was a really good childhood overall. I have no complaints.

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Yeah. Well, that's great. Now your sisters, how much older were both of your sisters?

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So I have one sister who is 18 years older than me and I have another sister

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who is 10 years older than me.

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And so as a point of reference, I'm 55.

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Yes. Okay. Well, now with such a massive gap growing up, did you get to really

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spend much time with either of them and really get to know them as a kid or not really?

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Not really. So my oldest sister, I was four when she got married.

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And so while I remember growing up, it was oftentimes it was her and her husband.

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For my other sister, who's 10 years older than me, she was the one I was closer

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to in that I would always ask things like, can we have some time?

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Like, can I have some time? I want to play.

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And for her as a teenager, having to deal with a brother who was 10 years younger

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than her and probably being a pest most of the time, she had her own friends

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and she had her own life that she was wanting to lead.

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So yeah, there was time, but it wasn't a really close or proximal sibling type relationship.

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Okay. Okay. Understandable. That's kind of what I expected you to say with the

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large gap in years. It only kind of makes sense.

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Moving right along in your story, talk to me about 10 years old,

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because I read something that just absolutely made me crack up.

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And I would love for you to share this story about being 10. him. Yeah, absolutely.

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So the year is 1979.

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And again, I grew up in a very staunch Catholic household and things happened.

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And I can't tell this story without acknowledging an event that happened to

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my sister who was 10 years older than me. She was 18 and she got pregnant.

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And I will share with you, Kevin, as well as everybody who's listening that

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in my opinion and in my perspective, nobody handled it well.

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And of course, how could they, right? This was something which we didn't hear

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a lot of, and it was often swept under the rug.

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And there was shame and embarrassment and anger and frustration and all of those kinds of things.

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And that's the relationship that my parents and my sister had to deal with.

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I, on the other hand, Kevin, was collateral damage.

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And I say that because when my sister broke the news to my parents,

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and we had a two-story house, and I was upstairs looking through the spindles

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and the railing trying to see what was going on, there was a lot of yelling,

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there was a lot of screaming,

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there was a lot of crying, and then there was a door slam.

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And my sister had left.

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And my mom called me downstairs and she sat me on her lap.

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And with tears in her eyes, she looked at me and she said, what your sister did was very bad.

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And if you ever go to bed with a woman before you're married,

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I hope you see my face instead of hers.

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Oh, no. Yeah. Let that one sit in. Let that sink in for a moment, everybody.

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Wow. Yeah. So, you know, so when you're 10 and you want to be a good son and

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you realize there's been a lot of upset and a lot of crying and you,

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you know, you just, you know, I'm like, okay. Yeah.

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Can I go back and watch TV? Like, all right. Like, I don't want to make my mom

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more upset than what she already is.

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But it opens up the bigger question, which was at 10 years old,

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did I really know that I was gay? Yes.

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And it wasn't until 16 years after that day or that year when I was 26 that

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I had finally uttered the words to some good friends of mine and said, I think I'm gay.

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And it wasn't until I was 28 when I came out to my parents.

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And that is a whole nother chapter in this story, which I'm sure we'll get to as well.

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Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. So, yes, what your mother said is terrifying to anybody, no doubt.

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Oh, my gosh. gosh, that is just, that is such a thing that like a mother would

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say in the heat of the moment, like that just literally can torture you for

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the rest of your life. Yeah, absolutely.

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Right. And you think about her upset and her grief and her desire to control,

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like this, this is what she thought was, you know, she was doing to keep me

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on the quote, quote unquote, right path.

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And Kevin, where it became a source of contention for us was that,

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you know, I dated a little bit when I was in high school and college,

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but it never went anywhere, right? And to clarify, I dated women.

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And of course, you know, the biggest fear is, oh my gosh, if I get one of them

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pregnant, I'm going to kill my parents kind of a thing, with all that upset.

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But my mom would joke about it with her friends and they'd be like,

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Like, oh, well, how'd you keep John to be such a good kid?

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And how did you raise John? And my mother would joke about that day and said,

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oh yeah, well, I just told him if he ever goes to bed with a woman before he's

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married, I hope he sees my face instead of hers.

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And I was 18 and my parents were hosting this party. We had a lot of people over the house, Kevin.

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And she told this joke and I was so mad and I was so upset and I leaned into

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the group and I went, mama said nothing about going to bed with a man.

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And holy crap, did I get it after everybody left.

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She was mad at me. You don't say those kind of things.

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That's not funny. And I said, right, it's not funny.

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The joke needs to stop.

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And I was trying to like test waters to see if there was any way...

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That there might be a change in thinking because I knew how my parents,

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I knew what they believed and I knew what they felt about gay people in general.

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And so I was looking for an avenue to find some kind of acceptance.

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And when I wasn't getting it, it just pushed me further and further back into the closet.

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Yeah. Was there a point, was there an age range when you finally understood

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the feelings that you had that you realized I am gay?

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I remember praying before my 16th birthday for God to make me straight.

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And, and part of that prayer was like to make the thoughts go away.

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Yes. And the 16th birthday came and it didn't.

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And so i was like all right you know and i remember

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i was in i was in my

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mid-20s it was the last woman i had dated and

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we had like gone out and it was like some kind of like pumpkin picking patch

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thing or whatever you know and you get the apple cider donuts or the pumpkin

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donuts or whatever and stuff and and i remember like brought her back to her

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house walked her to the door because all the things you're supposed to do kind of thing.

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And I drove home in tears because I couldn't, you know, I couldn't lead her on.

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My thoughts weren't, you know, with her.

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I certainly felt like I was at a point where I needed to truly acknowledge who

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I am and who I was attracted to because I had never acted on anything at this point.

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And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm lying to myself here.

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And I remember driving home in tears, thinking like, oh my gosh, what am I going to do?

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Hmm. Wow. And you were how old when that happened?

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24, 25. Okay. Okay.

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Had you been living away from home for a while at that point?

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So after I finished my undergraduate work, I had lived away from home for a couple of years.

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And then I moved back home to pursue a master's degree in teaching along with

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a mathematics minor, because I spent 14 years of my life as a mathematics teacher.

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So I had moved back home because my parents and my uncle made me this incredible

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offer I could not refuse,

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which was take two years off, go to school full time, we'll pay for it,

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and get your degree and get your career on the right path.

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And I was and will always be extremely grateful for that opportunity because

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it definitely set my career in motion after I had achieved those degrees. Yeah, absolutely.

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So walk me through then as we're kind of skipping along in this story,

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when you finally did decide to tell your parents and I guess I even preface

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that question by asking what led you to finally tell your parents? Yeah.

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So I'll back skip a little bit here for us to really share just a monumental point.

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There were a couple of friends of mine who were extremely supportive and very encouraging.

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They were a married couple, husband and wife. They had three kids.

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We used to hang out at their house a lot. We knew each other through some common

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activities and stuff. And I looked at my friend Donna one night and I said,

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I'm going to disappoint my parents bigger than my sister ever did.

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And she's like, John, you're like the perfect kid. Like, what could you possibly

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do that would disappoint them?

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And I looked at her and I said, I think I'm gay.

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And she looked at me and she goes, I thought you knew.

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And I was like, huh? And she goes, I just didn't think you told us.

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And at that point, Kevin, and this is where, when we think about grace and empathy

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and kindness, she stopped herself. And she was like.

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Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, come here. And she gave me this big hug and she's

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like, how do we be a great friend for you? Oh, wow. And yeah.

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And so what they ended up doing for me, and this is when we think about why

00:16:54.686 --> 00:16:57.266

allyship is so important.

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What they ended up doing for me because they loved me and they were friends

00:17:02.026 --> 00:17:04.546

of mine, they found a group.

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They found a support group about an hour north of where they lived.

00:17:09.146 --> 00:17:12.946

And they're like, let's get you some help. Let's get you some resources about

00:17:12.946 --> 00:17:15.746

if you decide to come out and what this is going to be like.

00:17:16.526 --> 00:17:22.326

And it was every Monday night at like seven o'clock. And I would go over to their house for dinner.

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And then the story I was telling was like, go over to the house for dinner.

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We're going to play some games.

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Well, it was like, go over to of their house, hop in the car,

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drive an hour north, go to this meeting for an hour and a half.

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And I got to meet other gay people and people who were very much like me and not like me in some ways.

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But I got to kind of understand what their coming out stories were like.

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In the process of being in that group, I met someone.

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And I will tell you, he was the third man I ever dated. And the other two,

00:17:58.146 --> 00:17:59.166

I didn't date for that long.

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Enough said, enough said. We've all been there. We've all been there.

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We all can relate, right? Doesn't matter whether you're gay,

00:18:11.106 --> 00:18:12.986

straight, whatever. Like we all have those people.

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So I meet this guy and we start dating. and I realized that we have a relationship

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and had dated him for about a year, maybe a little over a year.

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I had finished my graduate work. I had started a teaching position.

00:18:35.286 --> 00:18:38.666

It was the summer after that first year. I remember the date.

00:18:38.746 --> 00:18:47.366

It was July 10th, 1997 was the day I came out to my parents. and I.

00:18:49.247 --> 00:18:59.567

Knew in my heart that this was something I needed to do because I didn't want to lie to them anymore.

00:19:00.127 --> 00:19:04.927

And I figured they would probably be upset.

00:19:05.087 --> 00:19:09.827

I figured they would probably be angry and disappointed, but I didn't think

00:19:09.827 --> 00:19:18.547

they would cut me off given the way things had gone down with my sister. Yes. Wrong.

00:19:19.787 --> 00:19:27.287

I told my folks and I remember telling them and my mom started filling in the

00:19:27.287 --> 00:19:32.967

blanks and there was a lot of upset and a lot of tears.

00:19:33.687 --> 00:19:39.667

But here's where it was so important for me, Kevin, to show up in this way,

00:19:39.747 --> 00:19:47.167

because one of the things I promised myself, and this was with the help of a really great therapist,

00:19:47.987 --> 00:19:53.847

was that I would never say or do anything that I would regret because God forbid,

00:19:53.907 --> 00:19:55.747

this was the last time I saw my parents.

00:19:56.167 --> 00:19:59.607

I wanted to make sure that I never did or said anything I regretted.

00:20:00.107 --> 00:20:05.487

And so the last words I would always say to my parents was, I love you.

00:20:06.427 --> 00:20:09.167

Didn't expect them to say it back, but it was, I love you.

00:20:09.547 --> 00:20:16.727

And as you can imagine, there were some conversations and there were conversations

00:20:16.727 --> 00:20:22.247

around, this is a phase, you can't do this, who recruited you?

00:20:22.987 --> 00:20:25.447

I had to explain to them, nobody got a toaster on my behalf.

00:20:26.227 --> 00:20:31.827

And ultimately, it came down to an intervention.

00:20:33.747 --> 00:20:41.927

And if you've ever seen movies from like the late 1990s and the 2000s about interventions,

00:20:41.927 --> 00:20:44.687

interventions it pretty much played out that kind of way it

00:20:44.687 --> 00:20:51.607

does make for a good lifetime movie in that regard but you

00:20:51.607 --> 00:20:54.887

know i was still i was partnered with this

00:20:54.887 --> 00:21:00.547

person and had no intention of of leaving him at the time you know my mom my

00:21:00.547 --> 00:21:07.047

dad my oldest sister my uncle the priest were all in the room and my mom looked

00:21:07.047 --> 00:21:09.847

at me and she says you're going to need to make a decision it's either either

00:21:09.847 --> 00:21:13.187

us or him, because I can't keep living like this anymore.

00:21:13.647 --> 00:21:17.307

And that was probably one of the hardest days of my life.

00:21:18.847 --> 00:21:25.167

Wow. Wow. That is, I don't care what the situation is.

00:21:25.967 --> 00:21:28.727

That's a horrible thing to be faced with.

00:21:29.887 --> 00:21:34.387

Yeah. Ultimatums are done for very specific reasons.

00:21:34.747 --> 00:21:38.887

And as I've learned, learned my mom did what she felt was best.

00:21:39.387 --> 00:21:46.167

I don't fault her for that. I will never fault her for that because she did what she felt was best.

00:21:47.591 --> 00:21:49.771

Here's where it gets interesting.

00:21:52.331 --> 00:21:57.551

You ready? I'm ready. I'm ready. So here's where it gets even more interesting.

00:21:57.951 --> 00:22:00.651

So I'm essentially kicked out of the family.

00:22:01.391 --> 00:22:06.471

I had conversations with all four of them. Certainly couldn't debate Catholic

00:22:06.471 --> 00:22:08.151

theology and beliefs with any

00:22:08.151 --> 00:22:12.251

of them because I knew what I was doing was against the Catholic religion.

00:22:12.251 --> 00:22:19.691

Religion, but I also knew this was important about honoring who I am and me

00:22:19.691 --> 00:22:23.451

dealing with my own faith and religion at that point as well.

00:22:23.651 --> 00:22:26.011

That differed from how I was raised.

00:22:26.631 --> 00:22:29.931

We don't talk for 22 months.

00:22:30.971 --> 00:22:35.491

Now, my mom and dad had my phone number, my email. They knew how to get ahold

00:22:35.491 --> 00:22:36.531

of me if anything happened.

00:22:36.651 --> 00:22:40.551

And one day the phone rings and I see it's my dad. He says to me,

00:22:40.651 --> 00:22:42.651

your mom's been diagnosed with breast cancer.

00:22:43.131 --> 00:22:47.111

She's going to go into the hospital for a procedure. She wants to see you before

00:22:47.111 --> 00:22:48.271

she goes in the hospital.

00:22:50.311 --> 00:22:53.831

Okay, when do you want me to come down? So I drive down.

00:22:54.051 --> 00:22:58.431

Now I say to them, I said, look, so we're clear. I'm only coming down to meet

00:22:58.431 --> 00:23:00.591

with you and mom. There's nobody else here.

00:23:01.471 --> 00:23:05.851

Don't ambush me like you did the last time. No, just be your mom and me.

00:23:05.931 --> 00:23:09.531

Okay, great. So I see my mom and, you know,

00:23:09.551 --> 00:23:16.211

for anybody I can imagine when you're faced with a cancer diagnosis and you're

00:23:16.211 --> 00:23:20.931

faced with potentially your mortality at that point, you're scared.

00:23:21.671 --> 00:23:25.231

And for my mom, this was about let's clean up some loose ends.

00:23:26.031 --> 00:23:29.011

So we talk about what's going on and everything.

00:23:29.191 --> 00:23:34.631

And my mom says to me, are you still with him?

00:23:34.631 --> 00:23:37.371

Him she would never call my

00:23:37.371 --> 00:23:40.851

partner by name are you still with him and

00:23:40.851 --> 00:23:43.491

we had broken up we separated after about three and a

00:23:43.491 --> 00:23:46.491

half years and i said no and she

00:23:46.491 --> 00:23:53.171

goes well good and i go uh-uh you don't get to do that you don't get to gloat

00:23:53.171 --> 00:23:59.411

because relationships are hard and when relationships break up they're harder

00:23:59.411 --> 00:24:03.651

and when you go through a breakup in a relationship that's important to you

00:24:03.651 --> 00:24:05.571

and your family's not there for you,

00:24:05.611 --> 00:24:08.271

but your friends are, you don't get to gloat.

00:24:08.451 --> 00:24:14.771

Now, I'm sorry you have cancer. I want you to be well. I want this to be fully

00:24:14.771 --> 00:24:15.751

resolved and everything.

00:24:16.251 --> 00:24:18.611

So you and I need to work on our relationship.

00:24:19.191 --> 00:24:22.571

And if we're going to work on this relationship and start rebuilding it,

00:24:22.651 --> 00:24:24.831

here's the first thing that needs to happen.

00:24:25.131 --> 00:24:31.511

You do not get to pass disparaging remarks about me or my friends who were there

00:24:31.511 --> 00:24:34.171

for me when you chose not to be.

00:24:36.191 --> 00:24:42.631

I said, because they were there for me when you couldn't. And she looked at me, Kevin, and she goes,

00:24:43.576 --> 00:24:47.196

Okay. Now my mom's in her seventies.

00:24:47.656 --> 00:24:54.996

I get a 70 year old staunch Catholic woman to agree with me on something like,

00:24:55.036 --> 00:24:56.796

hell yeah, I'm going to take that as a win.

00:25:02.816 --> 00:25:07.536

Right. Yes. So at that point, I'm like, okay, take, take your win.

00:25:07.676 --> 00:25:15.476

Don't, don't push for anything more. And it was my mom's breast cancer that

00:25:15.476 --> 00:25:23.956

literally started us on a path to healing and resolving over the course of those

00:25:23.956 --> 00:25:26.356

next, you know, decade plus.

00:25:27.956 --> 00:25:33.816

Wow. Wow, wow, wow. What did happen going forward?

00:25:33.856 --> 00:25:38.356

Did your relationship get back to some type of normalcy?

00:25:38.516 --> 00:25:41.536

And even I want to ask even with the rest of your family.

00:25:42.116 --> 00:25:49.596

Yeah. So once my mom had her procedure done and we had agreed that we wanted

00:25:49.596 --> 00:25:52.636

to see each other, and I think that was the important piece here, right?

00:25:52.696 --> 00:25:57.896

We wanted, it was important for both of us to know that we wanted to see each

00:25:57.896 --> 00:26:00.216

other and see if there was a way to work some things out.

00:26:00.456 --> 00:26:05.696

So what we did, Kevin, was we started setting up some ground rules for what

00:26:05.696 --> 00:26:07.336

conversations would be like.

00:26:07.596 --> 00:26:12.376

And so some of those ground rules were when you ask a question,

00:26:12.596 --> 00:26:15.696

and this was for both of us, right? So it worked both ways.

00:26:15.896 --> 00:26:21.856

When a question is asked, that question is asked out of information and curiosity,

00:26:21.976 --> 00:26:25.256

not to be damning or abusive.

00:26:25.756 --> 00:26:30.796

Because I needed to acknowledge that my parents probably had some questions

00:26:30.796 --> 00:26:35.756

to how I got to this point and were curious, but I wanted to make sure that

00:26:35.756 --> 00:26:39.656

they were asking for information and not to be mean about it, right?

00:26:39.836 --> 00:26:44.636

So that was one thing. The second thing was, if at any point in time the conversation

00:26:44.636 --> 00:26:49.996

got to be too heated or uncomfortable, anybody could simply say,

00:26:50.116 --> 00:26:51.696

let's stop the conversation.

00:26:52.096 --> 00:26:57.436

And we would agree to stop it and set up another time to come back and discuss it.

00:26:57.556 --> 00:27:02.596

And the last thing that I honored was that the last thing I'm always going to

00:27:02.596 --> 00:27:05.676

say to you is I love you and eat it. Yes. Right.

00:27:06.516 --> 00:27:15.016

So once we set those things in place, it opened up for some probably unusual

00:27:15.016 --> 00:27:18.816

or different types of conversations, you know?

00:27:18.856 --> 00:27:21.236

Like, so my mom asked me one time and she said,

00:27:22.070 --> 00:27:28.750

how did you get this way? Mom, I kind of remember when I was younger having

00:27:28.750 --> 00:27:31.370

thoughts about being attracted to guys.

00:27:31.630 --> 00:27:36.690

Yeah, but when did that start? I don't know, like six? She's like, six?

00:27:37.710 --> 00:27:42.010

I'm like, yeah, like the first time I looked at somebody on TV and was like,

00:27:42.670 --> 00:27:45.350

okay. I didn't understand what it meant, right?

00:27:45.510 --> 00:27:48.510

But like, if you're trying to like tag something, I'm like, maybe,

00:27:48.770 --> 00:27:50.350

maybe, I like, I don't know.

00:27:50.790 --> 00:27:52.710

And she's like, well, it doesn't make sense to me. I'm like,

00:27:52.770 --> 00:27:54.310

well, does it have to make sense?

00:27:54.450 --> 00:27:59.490

Like, this is just, you know, you're attracted to dad because you're attracted to the opposite sex.

00:27:59.690 --> 00:28:02.450

You know, I'm not attracted to the opposite sex.

00:28:02.870 --> 00:28:05.830

It was difficult for them to get their head around.

00:28:06.030 --> 00:28:11.570

But if you remember that day when I was 10, this bugged my mother because she

00:28:11.570 --> 00:28:14.930

looks at me one day and she says to me, I need to ask you a question.

00:28:15.350 --> 00:28:18.250

Okay, is that question for information or you're curious, yes.

00:28:18.650 --> 00:28:23.810

You're trying to be abusive or argument. No, go ahead, ask the question.

00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:30.230

Do you remember when your sister got pregnant? Uh-huh. And I sat you on my lap.

00:28:30.390 --> 00:28:33.690

Uh-huh. And I told you that if you, uh-huh.

00:28:33.990 --> 00:28:37.330

Did that make you? Absolutely, it did.

00:28:38.890 --> 00:28:44.330

My dad, Kevin goes, and I go, oh, come on, that was perfectly over the plate.

00:28:44.430 --> 00:28:46.390

How do I not hit that out of the ballpark? Come on.

00:28:48.170 --> 00:28:52.550

And then we have this moment of laughter and I look at my mom and I hold my

00:28:52.550 --> 00:28:58.370

mom's hand and I go, all joking aside, no, that did not make me gay.

00:28:59.170 --> 00:29:02.810

And she was like, okay, because I've worried about that. And I go,

00:29:02.910 --> 00:29:05.890

of course she did. Because you can't let anything go.

00:29:08.790 --> 00:29:16.950

So it was really important for me, Kevin, that I used my gift of humor to lighten up some situations,

00:29:17.130 --> 00:29:22.130

but there were times when conversations got heated and we walked away and we

00:29:22.130 --> 00:29:28.910

said I love you and we made it a point to come back down and have another conversation at the house.

00:29:29.731 --> 00:29:35.531

Things were said, hurtful things were said, but because you love and because

00:29:35.531 --> 00:29:40.771

there's an opportunity to forgive and you try to build some kind of awareness,

00:29:41.171 --> 00:29:46.011

you know, one of the things I learned as part of this was the biggest,

00:29:46.131 --> 00:29:50.211

I'm going to use the word mistake, and I know some people may challenge me on

00:29:50.211 --> 00:29:53.211

that, but it's the best word I can use in this context.

00:29:53.211 --> 00:30:01.171

The biggest mistake I feel like I made in my coming out journey was that I expected

00:30:01.171 --> 00:30:08.611

my parents to fully accept and believe in me on the spot without any struggle.

00:30:09.811 --> 00:30:15.431

And that was wrong of me to do. They had their own journey to travel when it

00:30:15.431 --> 00:30:22.031

came to accepting that their youngest and their only son was gay.

00:30:22.811 --> 00:30:28.511

And for me to expect them to just be like, okay, that's great.

00:30:28.611 --> 00:30:29.711

When do we get to meet your partner?

00:30:30.151 --> 00:30:35.691

It just wasn't gonna happen. It was an unrealistic expectation on my part.

00:30:36.011 --> 00:30:41.971

And so what I had to do was I had to learn to give them grace and give them

00:30:41.971 --> 00:30:47.451

opportunities to question without me getting upset or angry with them,

00:30:48.071 --> 00:30:54.131

but to help them along their journey so they could get to wherever they could.

00:30:54.731 --> 00:30:58.311

In the process of all of this, keep in mind it came out in 1997.

00:30:58.811 --> 00:31:06.191

My dad passed away unexpectedly in 2003, or 2004, sorry.

00:31:07.211 --> 00:31:11.471

And the last thing I ever said to him was, I love you.

00:31:12.431 --> 00:31:16.671

That is a gift. I had been healing the relationship with my parents.

00:31:17.411 --> 00:31:20.571

My uncle, no. My sister, eh.

00:31:20.971 --> 00:31:26.571

Not really, because it was so important for me to work on my relationship with my folks first.

00:31:27.911 --> 00:31:36.791

My mother loses her husband and her two brothers within 18 months. Wow.

00:31:37.411 --> 00:31:41.331

My mom was married to my dad for 55 years.

00:31:42.171 --> 00:31:47.311

And of course, when death happens, sometimes families rally. Right.

00:31:48.213 --> 00:31:53.653

And I remember looking at my sister, because the one sister who had gotten pregnant,

00:31:53.733 --> 00:31:54.813

she's out of the picture.

00:31:55.133 --> 00:31:59.193

But I looked at my sister and I said, look, whatever's going on between us,

00:31:59.253 --> 00:32:01.593

we put this aside right now. We're here for mom.

00:32:01.993 --> 00:32:04.653

Like our common goal is we take care of mom.

00:32:04.993 --> 00:32:09.613

My sister looked at me and she went, got it. And so that's where we started

00:32:09.613 --> 00:32:13.313

healing our relationship a little bit in that regard. Wow.

00:32:14.433 --> 00:32:22.853

Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. In the year since then, has the relationship between you

00:32:22.853 --> 00:32:25.993

and your sisters gotten any better or stayed the same?

00:32:26.413 --> 00:32:33.153

So there is no relationship with my younger sister.

00:32:33.493 --> 00:32:36.793

That, you know, everything kind of went down at 10.

00:32:36.953 --> 00:32:41.853

I firmly believe, just like my parents did, She did what she needed to do,

00:32:41.873 --> 00:32:46.213

which was best for her, her husband and her family. And that meant she walked away.

00:32:46.693 --> 00:32:50.893

I obviously don't know all the conversations that happened, but based on my

00:32:50.893 --> 00:32:53.773

own experiences, probably didn't go too well.

00:32:54.253 --> 00:33:02.113

And so while there's no relationship there, I certainly respect and understand

00:33:02.113 --> 00:33:04.753

the decisions my sister had to make.

00:33:04.933 --> 00:33:08.733

With my older sister that's 18 years older than me, there is a relationship

00:33:08.733 --> 00:33:13.193

there. You know, you get older and people kind of, you know,

00:33:13.193 --> 00:33:17.213

gravitate in their own ways kind of a thing, but she's still a part of my life.

00:33:17.313 --> 00:33:19.533

So, you know, that's fine as well.

00:33:19.973 --> 00:33:25.133

But, you know, I think one thing I do want to just kind of extend here a little

00:33:25.133 --> 00:33:29.813

bit, Kevin, is that one of the things I am most proud of in this life is the

00:33:29.813 --> 00:33:31.533

relationship my mom and I had.

00:33:33.273 --> 00:33:37.613

And when you think back on the story I've shared with you today,

00:33:37.713 --> 00:33:40.553

you're like, gosh, how do you get there?

00:33:41.013 --> 00:33:48.433

Six months after my dad passed, my mom looks at me and she was in her late seventies.

00:33:48.793 --> 00:33:53.273

She looks at me, we're standing in her house and she goes, I don't know how

00:33:53.273 --> 00:33:55.213

you do it. And I said, do what?

00:33:55.653 --> 00:33:58.353

And she goes, be alone. Be alone.

00:33:59.196 --> 00:34:04.576

I said, what do you mean? She said, your father has been gone for six months.

00:34:05.476 --> 00:34:08.956

Loneliness sucks. From a 78-year-old woman.

00:34:09.556 --> 00:34:14.956

Loneliness sucks. And I said, mom, I can't imagine what you're going through.

00:34:14.956 --> 00:34:21.496

He said, but you and dad loved each other for 55 years.

00:34:21.776 --> 00:34:28.176

He said, you had a relationship where you two liked and loved each other.

00:34:29.056 --> 00:34:37.036

You were best friends. I go, and I know you struggle with who I am and who I

00:34:37.036 --> 00:34:39.076

want to be in a relationship with.

00:34:39.216 --> 00:34:42.036

Why am I not entitled to the same happiness?

00:34:42.816 --> 00:34:47.436

Hmm. And she looked at me and she goes, I get it.

00:34:48.036 --> 00:34:51.896

Now for a 78 year old woman, like win number two.

00:34:52.536 --> 00:34:59.156

Like I get it, okay? So my mom lived for seven years after my dad passed.

00:34:59.956 --> 00:35:05.896

And my sister and I rallied. My sister would take care of Sunday dinners and

00:35:05.896 --> 00:35:07.316

medical appointments and things.

00:35:07.416 --> 00:35:12.416

And I would take care of the finances and vacations and stuff like that.

00:35:12.416 --> 00:35:16.796

And trips to Atlantic City where we would sit next to each other at slot machines

00:35:16.796 --> 00:35:18.676

and just have the best conversation.

00:35:19.696 --> 00:35:23.856

Because my mom loved a really good conversation. The really sweet part of this

00:35:23.856 --> 00:35:28.356

story is, Kevin, is that over 15 years ago, I met my now husband.

00:35:28.716 --> 00:35:32.736

And when I met Richard, my mom was curious.

00:35:34.396 --> 00:35:38.416

And we dated long distance for two years. I was living in New Jersey.

00:35:38.496 --> 00:35:40.396

Richard was living in Washington, D.C.

00:35:41.796 --> 00:35:44.876

And she's like, why are you spending so much time with this guy?

00:35:45.716 --> 00:35:48.716

And I was like, I like hanging out with him. You know, he's funny,

00:35:48.736 --> 00:35:52.196

smart, he's intelligent, you know, good people.

00:35:52.496 --> 00:35:57.516

And we had been dating for about four months. And my mother says to me, when do I get to meet him?

00:35:58.516 --> 00:36:03.196

You could have knocked me over with a feather. Like, not.

00:36:04.229 --> 00:36:09.049

You want to meet him? Yeah, I want to meet him. He's important to you. I want to meet him. Okay.

00:36:10.229 --> 00:36:18.269

So we met on her turf. And her turf was the Borgata Casino in Atlantic City.

00:36:21.569 --> 00:36:25.089

That's where my mother said to me, she goes, when I die, are you going to come

00:36:25.089 --> 00:36:27.789

to the cemetery and visit? I said, no, I don't like cemeteries,

00:36:27.789 --> 00:36:29.389

but I'll come to the Borgata three times a year.

00:36:34.229 --> 00:36:39.989

I love it. So, right. So, so we meet and, and so I'm like, I'm prepping Richard

00:36:39.989 --> 00:36:41.889

the whole time. I'm like, oh, kid gloves.

00:36:42.069 --> 00:36:44.209

You know, I don't know where my mom's going to be with all this. Right.

00:36:44.449 --> 00:36:47.009

She meets him. She's like, let's go play some machines. Right.

00:36:47.089 --> 00:36:49.349

She's teaching him how to play these slot machines and stuff.

00:36:49.629 --> 00:36:53.929

We had a nearly three hour dinner.

00:36:54.449 --> 00:37:00.349

She was asking him about his work and his growing up and what he did and everything. thing.

00:37:00.849 --> 00:37:06.049

And we were getting ready to leave and he had gone to the restroom and I'm standing

00:37:06.049 --> 00:37:08.429

there with my mom and she looks at me.

00:37:08.829 --> 00:37:12.869

I'll never forget this. She goes, he's very nice.

00:37:13.209 --> 00:37:18.949

I have a feeling you two will be good friends for a very long time. I got my mom's blessing.

00:37:20.089 --> 00:37:27.149

In that moment, I got my mom's blessing as a, you know,

00:37:27.209 --> 00:37:34.849

80-year-old woman who lived this life and struggled with her challenges and

00:37:34.849 --> 00:37:39.369

her life and her beliefs and the upset and the tumult that she's had in her life.

00:37:39.729 --> 00:37:44.949

For her to look at me and say, I have a feeling you two are going to be really

00:37:44.949 --> 00:37:47.209

good friends for a very long time.

00:37:48.049 --> 00:37:54.069

I felt like everything came full circle. How do you ask for more?

00:37:55.596 --> 00:38:02.416

And so Richard got included in family gatherings because Richard lost both of

00:38:02.416 --> 00:38:05.276

his parents very, very young due to cancer.

00:38:06.196 --> 00:38:11.456

And so he found himself at like his mid-30s having lost both of his parents.

00:38:12.156 --> 00:38:18.976

And so Richard got a sense of like, he got a motherly figure in his life who

00:38:18.976 --> 00:38:24.476

recognized and celebrated him for his role in my life.

00:38:25.596 --> 00:38:30.976

You know, we could never talk like my mom would sometimes get on the habit of

00:38:30.976 --> 00:38:37.036

like trying to figure out mechanics, you know, it's not a conversation you want

00:38:37.036 --> 00:38:38.456

to have with your parents, right?

00:38:38.616 --> 00:38:41.536

I don't want to know about your sex life. Don't ask me about mine.

00:38:42.496 --> 00:38:45.796

Exactly. So that's where the ground rules came into play. I was like,

00:38:45.816 --> 00:38:47.416

mom, we're not going to talk about that.

00:38:47.956 --> 00:38:53.076

Yes. But it was Thanksgiving dinners and Christmas dinners and birthdays and

00:38:53.076 --> 00:38:56.436

Mother's Day and and things like that, where he was there.

00:38:57.296 --> 00:39:02.676

My mom, it'll be, let's see, 13 years this July that she passed.

00:39:03.796 --> 00:39:09.656

And even though he didn't get a lot of time with her, at the same time,

00:39:09.676 --> 00:39:15.256

he recognized how special and important that was, as did I.

00:39:15.956 --> 00:39:23.056

And I will always, always, always be forever grateful and love him even more

00:39:23.056 --> 00:39:26.056

for the fact he was so kind to my mom in that way.

00:39:26.736 --> 00:39:33.116

Yeah. You know what two words keep coming to me when I'm hearing this story

00:39:33.116 --> 00:39:38.116

between you and your mother are mutual love and respect.

00:39:38.736 --> 00:39:47.236

Yeah. And I think to myself, because both of you adopted mutual love and respect together,

00:39:47.863 --> 00:39:55.583

That was what made it possible for you to create this relationship together.

00:39:55.963 --> 00:40:03.883

That when you tell that story, I mean, that is absolutely just the biggest tearjerker

00:40:03.883 --> 00:40:06.503

in the world because of how beautiful it is.

00:40:07.343 --> 00:40:12.463

Yeah. Wow, wow, wow. Wow. Yeah. It's a great way of phrasing it that way,

00:40:12.523 --> 00:40:18.223

because we could not have shown up for each other if it hadn't been for that

00:40:18.223 --> 00:40:19.423

mutual love and respect,

00:40:19.523 --> 00:40:23.323

because there were tough conversations to be had.

00:40:23.523 --> 00:40:29.803

There were struggles around lifelong beliefs and religious principles and tenets

00:40:29.803 --> 00:40:36.343

and, you know, combating stereotypes and fear. Let's talk about fear.

00:40:36.743 --> 00:40:40.903

You know, I come out in 1997 to them.

00:40:41.443 --> 00:40:46.263

AIDS was still very much part of the conversation.

00:40:46.943 --> 00:40:49.283

And, you know, my mom's like, you're going to die.

00:40:50.023 --> 00:40:52.183

We're all going to die, you know?

00:40:52.183 --> 00:40:54.943

And she's like, no, no, you're going to die of AIDS. God, I hope not.

00:40:55.243 --> 00:41:00.923

You know, but it was that kind of fear and everything there that you think about

00:41:00.923 --> 00:41:06.383

having these intentional conversations that move relationships forward.

00:41:07.203 --> 00:41:13.323

That was always the goal. How do we move this relationship forward based on this conversation?

00:41:13.783 --> 00:41:18.203

Moving the conversation forward doesn't always mean that you're hugging it out

00:41:18.203 --> 00:41:23.023

and it's rosy and cheery and everything's great and wraps up in a 22-minute sitcom.

00:41:23.383 --> 00:41:29.363

What it means is that you've made some kind of progress to a clear decision.

00:41:30.663 --> 00:41:34.103

And I will always be grateful for the fact that my parents...

00:41:35.017 --> 00:41:40.277

Honored that process, even as difficult as it was for them. Yeah, absolutely.

00:41:40.717 --> 00:41:49.117

You've talked a lot about showing up and you have kind of a foundation for showing up.

00:41:49.217 --> 00:41:52.297

I believe you have it broken down by six different principles.

00:41:52.577 --> 00:41:55.217

Will you dive into that for us?

00:41:55.517 --> 00:42:01.957

Yeah. So because this coming out journey and building the relationships with

00:42:01.957 --> 00:42:05.157

my my folks was so important.

00:42:06.057 --> 00:42:09.917

I would have been remissed had I not taken the lessons learned from those experiences

00:42:09.917 --> 00:42:12.897

and figured out where else they applied in my life.

00:42:13.977 --> 00:42:18.917

And so when I talk about showing up, I do break it down into six strategies,

00:42:19.037 --> 00:42:23.457

and they are the S stands for setting ground rules.

00:42:23.937 --> 00:42:27.877

The H stands for having intentional conversations.

00:42:29.037 --> 00:42:34.437

The O stands for owning where you are. The W, welcome new opportunities.

00:42:35.257 --> 00:42:37.597

The U, use your genius.

00:42:38.557 --> 00:42:43.437

The P stands for protect and promote your brand. And in my book,

00:42:43.457 --> 00:42:46.997

Show Up, Six Strategies to Lead a More Energetic and Impactful Career,

00:42:47.877 --> 00:42:51.997

I tell the story of my coming out in the first part of the book.

00:42:52.157 --> 00:42:57.477

But in the second part of the book, I take these six strategies and I walk them

00:42:57.477 --> 00:43:03.577

through where they've applied in this coming out journey, but also how they've applied in my career.

00:43:04.597 --> 00:43:09.317

So you don't have to do the show up strategies in order. And when I work with

00:43:09.317 --> 00:43:12.337

people on that, we typically start with the O and the W.

00:43:12.837 --> 00:43:19.897

So the O, owning where you are. For me, yeah, I had to own the fact that I recognize

00:43:19.897 --> 00:43:22.337

and understand that I'm a gay male.

00:43:23.125 --> 00:43:30.885

And that meant owning a big part of my life that I kept hidden for a very, very long time.

00:43:31.585 --> 00:43:36.545

The W in terms of welcoming new opportunities, what that meant along the way

00:43:36.545 --> 00:43:40.585

was, who do I get to meet? What do I get to learn?

00:43:41.125 --> 00:43:46.325

Where do I get to learn from somebody else's coming out journey or experience

00:43:46.325 --> 00:43:51.965

or circumstance or situation that has helped them grow to where they are.

00:43:52.485 --> 00:43:56.385

The setting ground rules, we've talked about that before. Setting ground rules

00:43:56.385 --> 00:43:58.125

simply means that we know how to play.

00:43:58.285 --> 00:44:01.805

And when we know how to play, we don't have to walk on eggshells.

00:44:01.805 --> 00:44:05.725

When I set those ground rules with my folks about any conversations we were

00:44:05.725 --> 00:44:09.785

going to have, I could call them out and be like, that's getting abusive.

00:44:10.605 --> 00:44:15.325

And they would redirect, or they would call me out on something and be like, that's getting nasty.

00:44:15.665 --> 00:44:21.585

You're right. Let's redirect. Having intentional conversations move the relationship forward.

00:44:22.085 --> 00:44:27.565

But the U and the P are two interesting ones because using your genius.

00:44:27.945 --> 00:44:34.705

So I shared a little bit earlier that I used my gift of humor to help in those situations.

00:44:35.205 --> 00:44:43.265

So for me, if I could get people to laugh, especially if I could get my parents

00:44:43.265 --> 00:44:45.385

to laugh, things felt lighter.

00:44:45.765 --> 00:44:49.985

So might it be a little self-deprecating at times? Sure.

00:44:50.325 --> 00:44:57.065

But when we can bring humor and appropriate humor into a situation, it can make it lighter.

00:44:57.345 --> 00:45:00.485

And then the P about protecting and promoting your brand.

00:45:00.745 --> 00:45:06.385

Kevin, there were things that people said to me, particularly my uncle,

00:45:06.525 --> 00:45:15.065

my sister, my parents, that were attacks on my brand and my reputation.

00:45:15.945 --> 00:45:22.045

That I had to stand up for myself and call out and say, that's incorrect,

00:45:22.385 --> 00:45:26.305

you're wrong, and I'm not gonna allow you to talk to me that way.

00:45:26.505 --> 00:45:32.905

So when you think about these six strategies, what if we took them and we applied

00:45:32.905 --> 00:45:37.905

them to our careers or we applied them to any relationship that we have?

00:45:37.905 --> 00:45:43.245

When I work with people as an executive and career coach, we talk about these

00:45:43.245 --> 00:45:45.885

show of six strategies in very different capacities.

00:45:46.345 --> 00:45:51.585

And so how do you set ground rules for your meetings with your team and your direct reports?

00:45:52.065 --> 00:45:56.785

How do you have intentional conversations with your leadership about a particular

00:45:56.785 --> 00:46:00.545

workflow or about where your career is progressing?

00:46:02.015 --> 00:46:06.755

How do you use your genius and leverage that to make your project better,

00:46:06.855 --> 00:46:11.655

your organization better, your leadership better, your career better?

00:46:12.195 --> 00:46:18.135

How do you protect and promote your brand and your reputation internally as well as externally?

00:46:18.655 --> 00:46:22.475

Because Jeff Bezos has one of the best quotes about branding I've ever heard,

00:46:22.535 --> 00:46:25.775

which is your brand is what people say about you when you're not in the room.

00:46:26.615 --> 00:46:31.055

And then of course, owning where you are and welcoming those new opportunities.

00:46:31.055 --> 00:46:37.595

And so I wrote the book, Show Up, because I kept hearing people say to me at

00:46:37.595 --> 00:46:39.475

work, I need to show up differently.

00:46:39.755 --> 00:46:45.775

What does that mean? And so the Show Up Six strategies provide a benchmark or

00:46:45.775 --> 00:46:47.435

a foundation, if you will,

00:46:47.615 --> 00:46:52.075

about when we talk about showing up, tap into one or more of those strategies

00:46:52.075 --> 00:46:58.815

and be clear about how you choose to show up in your life and career. Yeah.

00:46:59.375 --> 00:47:02.455

Wow. I love it so much.

00:47:02.775 --> 00:47:09.335

The story that you shared with your mother, and really, we could say your entire

00:47:09.335 --> 00:47:15.855

life story, how has that impacted the person you are today, both personally,

00:47:16.075 --> 00:47:17.515

professionally, and what you do?

00:47:17.695 --> 00:47:20.515

How do you feel like that has impacted you?

00:47:20.715 --> 00:47:29.535

There's certainly a part about strength and resiliency that rings very, very true for me.

00:47:29.655 --> 00:47:33.495

You know, everybody has something in life that they work through.

00:47:34.450 --> 00:47:40.230

Or they face. And I had a neighbor growing up who said to me that everybody's

00:47:40.230 --> 00:47:42.170

problems were like pairs of shoes.

00:47:42.430 --> 00:47:46.170

And if everybody in the world threw their shoes into a corner and you could

00:47:46.170 --> 00:47:49.790

pick whichever pair of shoes you wanted, you would always go back and pick your

00:47:49.790 --> 00:47:51.350

own because they're the most comfortable.

00:47:52.710 --> 00:47:59.230

Right? And so for me, I recognize that my coming out wasn't easy.

00:47:59.230 --> 00:48:01.950

Coming out isn't easy for anybody.

00:48:02.810 --> 00:48:09.710

And yes, we sit in 2024 here and things are certainly different than what they

00:48:09.710 --> 00:48:17.290

were in 1997 and 1977 and all, but nevertheless, there's still a lot of work to be done.

00:48:17.290 --> 00:48:20.750

But when we have those conversations, we're vulnerable.

00:48:21.590 --> 00:48:27.530

And if we're met with grace and kindness, we can be met with disagreement on

00:48:27.530 --> 00:48:29.170

a lot of things in life. That's okay.

00:48:29.890 --> 00:48:34.630

But it's about showing up to those conversations with grace that allow you to

00:48:34.630 --> 00:48:37.490

see where the conversation takes you.

00:48:37.610 --> 00:48:43.570

Because I've had those conversations in my life, I very rarely shy away from

00:48:43.570 --> 00:48:46.430

a difficult conversation. You can ask my husband.

00:48:51.430 --> 00:48:55.010

Because he knows he knows i'll be the one to kind of bring something up first

00:48:55.010 --> 00:48:58.430

or whatever or if if something else is happening i'll be like do you want me

00:48:58.430 --> 00:49:00.450

to take care of it he's like dear god no.

00:49:01.990 --> 00:49:05.810

Don't need you to take care of that right there's a reason why we go to buy

00:49:05.810 --> 00:49:12.410

cars i go alone on you know the last time he came with me but yeah it's it's that kind of thing where

00:49:12.610 --> 00:49:17.770

I don't shy away from conversations because I know that once you have them,

00:49:17.950 --> 00:49:20.110

there's a whole lot better on the other side.

00:49:20.630 --> 00:49:28.210

Yeah, I love it. Before I ask you my last question, tell everybody where they

00:49:28.210 --> 00:49:32.070

can find your book, where they can get plugged into your world,

00:49:32.230 --> 00:49:34.250

where's the best places for us to send them.

00:49:34.330 --> 00:49:38.830

And of course, everything you mentioned, I'll be sure is in the show notes for easy access.

00:49:39.270 --> 00:49:43.410

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for that. So you can find my books on Amazon.

00:49:43.730 --> 00:49:47.930

So Show Up, Six Strategies to Lead a More Energetic and Impactful Career.

00:49:48.310 --> 00:49:53.870

It's at definitely a discounted price right now on Amazon. So feel free to go grab that.

00:49:54.070 --> 00:49:59.390

My other book is called Your Mid-Career GPS, Four Steps to Figuring Out What's Next.

00:49:59.890 --> 00:50:05.710

And there is an updated part to the Show Up, Six Strategies in the back of that book.

00:50:05.890 --> 00:50:12.750

People can find me on LinkedIn at John Nerrell. It's J-O-H-N-N-E-R-A-L.

00:50:12.990 --> 00:50:18.150

You can also find me on my website at johnnerrell.com. And I host a podcast

00:50:18.150 --> 00:50:23.850

called the Mid-Career GPS Podcast, which Kevin, I was honored to have you on the show as well.

00:50:23.990 --> 00:50:27.670

And you can find the Mid-Career GPS Podcast wherever you listen.

00:50:28.563 --> 00:50:35.003

Yeah, fantastic, fantastic. Highly encourage any of you to get plugged into this guy's world.

00:50:35.103 --> 00:50:37.943

As you can tell, the guy is just incredible.

00:50:38.303 --> 00:50:43.323

You are incredible, John. And so, man, definitely check out the show notes and

00:50:43.323 --> 00:50:45.743

get plugged into everything you just mentioned.

00:50:45.983 --> 00:50:52.043

My last question for you is I would love for you to talk to the person who's been listening today.

00:50:52.043 --> 00:50:59.583

And maybe they are in the position you were back in your 20s,

00:50:59.583 --> 00:51:01.583

discovering about themselves,

00:51:02.163 --> 00:51:06.543

trying to understand what it means, trying to understand how the rest of the

00:51:06.543 --> 00:51:12.963

world is going to feel when they let out that secret. What would you say to that person?

00:51:13.343 --> 00:51:18.863

Build your network. Build your support system. There are people out there who

00:51:18.863 --> 00:51:24.763

love you and care about you and see you, and it's important to pull them close.

00:51:25.043 --> 00:51:31.103

Whatever it is that you believe you need to talk about or you need to share,

00:51:31.403 --> 00:51:38.423

you've got to build your support network because they're going to be there for you when you need them.

00:51:38.423 --> 00:51:45.923

And I am extremely grateful for the people who have been, were,

00:51:46.143 --> 00:51:51.083

and continue to be part of my support system because they mean the world to

00:51:51.083 --> 00:51:53.023

me. They are everything to me.

00:51:53.943 --> 00:51:59.723

And when you have that, there is strength, there is grit, there is grace,

00:51:59.943 --> 00:52:07.703

there is inspiration to help you have that conversation when you are ready.

00:52:08.423 --> 00:52:14.383

And that's the key thing. It is when you are ready that your network is there

00:52:14.383 --> 00:52:18.323

for you whenever you need them. Yeah, I love it. I love it.

00:52:18.563 --> 00:52:23.463

John, I want to thank you not just for being on the podcast today,

00:52:23.543 --> 00:52:30.283

but I want to thank you for being so honest, so real. And at the same time...

00:52:31.300 --> 00:52:41.380

Your ability to take a really tough subject and with your gift of humor,

00:52:41.520 --> 00:52:48.480

of having us laugh right along with you while at the same time tearing up when you teared up.

00:52:48.480 --> 00:52:54.420

It means the world to me to have you on the podcast and for you to feel so open,

00:52:54.460 --> 00:52:58.740

to be so honest, all with the goal that there's somebody listening today,

00:52:58.980 --> 00:53:04.780

you know, that they take something that you said and can put it in play in their own life.

00:53:04.960 --> 00:53:08.960

And so, so truly in the most heartfelt way, thank you so much.

00:53:09.280 --> 00:53:12.500

Well, thank you, Kevin. That means the world to me.

00:53:12.620 --> 00:53:18.340

And I receive that with an open heart. And, you know, you create a space in

00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:24.140

this world for people to come and share their story in part because of your

00:53:24.140 --> 00:53:26.600

story and what you've gone through as well.

00:53:26.860 --> 00:53:32.400

I am honored and so grateful to add to this conversation to you and for everyone

00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.960

who has listened today just to be a part of it. Thank you for all the work you do. You're amazing.

00:53:37.260 --> 00:53:42.260

Oh, thank you so much. But for you listening today, my hope,

00:53:42.360 --> 00:53:47.660

my prayer is that something said today, it's an impact on you,

00:53:47.780 --> 00:53:49.980

that it made a light bulb go off.

00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:56.140

Or maybe you can't help but think of a friend who you know that they could benefit

00:53:56.140 --> 00:53:58.040

from hearing our conversation today.

00:53:58.200 --> 00:54:02.120

Be sure to share it with them. That's how we keep the love of this podcast alive.

00:54:02.540 --> 00:54:06.700

So my friend, get out there, take on the day, enjoy the day.

00:54:06.700 --> 00:54:10.140

This is Kevin Lowe with Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.

00:54:10.640 --> 00:54:28.886

Music.