Show Transcript

It's no doubt that a single moment in time can completely change the rest of your life.

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Today, it's a story of a moment, a decision, and it completely changed the life for today's guest.

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I want you to imagine, imagine back when you were a teenager with nothing but

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the hopes for the future, enjoying life, excited about tomorrow.

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And then, of course, that moment happens, a decision, a single moment in time,

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and everything changes.

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Our guest today, John Antonucci, he knows this story all too well.

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That moment was devastating.

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That moment would change the lives of so very many, including his own.

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Faced with a 14-year prison sentence, John Antonucci could have viewed his life as done.

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But instead, as the story goes, he would use this as a transformation because,

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well, he realized every setback is a setup for an amazing comeback.

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Today is one heck of a comeback story.

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Now, here's how today's episode, though, is going to mean something more to you.

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Is that while you listen, I want you to keep in mind that it's not what happens

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in this life that matters.

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No, it's how we react to it that defines us.

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Keep that in mind as you listen to his story and understand how that moment,

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that doesn't make him who he is.

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Instead, it's all the things that he's done since then. My friend,

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I welcome you to episode 284.

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What's up, my friend, and welcome to Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.

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I am your host, Kevin Lowe. 20 years ago, I awoke from a life-saving surgery

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only to find that I was left completely blind.

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And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.

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And here on this podcast, I want to share those insights with you.

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Because friend, if you are still searching for your purpose,

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still trying to understand why, or still left searching for that next right

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path to take, we'll consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from

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where you are to where you want to be.

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Do you and your family watch much TV? If so, then you have probably seen the

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commercials for MyPillow.

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Well, did you know that here on the podcast, we are sponsored by MyPillow?

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And what does that mean for you?

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Well, that means you get to use the promo code Kevin And you can get the best

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available price on any of their more than 250 products.

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link that makes it easy for you.

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Remember, just use promo code Kevin when shopping at MyPillow.

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Last week on the podcast, I mentioned

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that I wanted to start doing prayer requests for you, my listeners,

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and today we are going right along with that, and I have a prayer request from

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Debbie, and she asked prayer for her son, Shannon.

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Shannon recently underwent massive heart surgery, and she just asked if we could

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be praying for Shannon for complete and total healing,

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that he will get strong and well and can get back to living the life that he was.

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His name is Shannon, and it would be amazing if you could say a prayer for him today.

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And please remember, if you would like to have your prayer request featured

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here on the podcast, I've made it super simple.

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All you have to do is send your prayer request via text to 877-749-8178.

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Again, that phone number is 877-749-8178.

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And remember, don't call that phone number. Just send a text message.

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That is what it is set up for. So send a text message to that phone number with your prayer request.

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And I would love to feature it here on the podcast. With that,

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my friend, it's back to the episode.

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Here is my interview with John Antonucci.

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I grew up in the foothills of Colorado in a town called Fort Collins.

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And was the probably the most entrepreneurial young man that you have ever encountered.

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I don't know if you've even heard more, but at seven years old,

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I started my own lawn business.

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By the time I was 12, I was running that and delivering newspapers and selling

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newspaper subscriptions and going up to the local convenience store.

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I think they call it convenience plus back then. Anyways, and like making the

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coffee and stocking the shelves and helping a little local produce stand selling

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old town and really just work and work and work.

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And because I was homeschooled my entire life, that gave me the opportunity

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to get the schoolwork out of the way and get back to work.

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So very ambitious young man, somebody that my parents were often known as John's

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parents in the neighborhood.

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And yeah, just very, very much a go-getter. And then at about 12,

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I got involved with martial arts.

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And that was something that I just really took to really, really quickly.

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And so from that point on, that was kind of the passion.

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I still worked and did all the other jobs, but my dream was to become an instructor.

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And I was able to officially realize that dream when I was 17 years old.

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We'd moved to Arizona by that time.

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It was an unfortunate situation, but one of the instructors that had been a

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longtime instructor with the company that I was a part of, passed away.

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And they were in a bind to try to fill all of the classes.

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And at that point, a 17-year-old ambitious young man was all that was really required.

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I had the rank, I had the ambition, and they had the needs. So we complimented each other in that.

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And by the time I was 19, I was instructing over 500 students across the Phoenix

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Metro Valley and really, Really, really just continuing on.

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So that's kind of an overview of what I was doing.

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Yeah, amazing. Now, what do you think it was about martial arts in particular

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that really attracted you to it?

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You know, I think it's hard to say. It's hard to say. Being homeschooled,

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as much as that gave me an incredible amount of opportunity.

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This was back in the days before homeschooling was cool, certainly pre-COVID.

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Yeah. And so I think there was a lot of kids that are near me that didn't know how to take that.

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So probably a little bit to try to overcome some bullying and things.

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But but I think honestly, if I look back on it now, I kind of became a bully there for a while.

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And so I think a lot of it was just a desire to be powerful,

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a desire to command control and respect.

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What do you mean when you say that you kind of became a bully?

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Why? Why would you say that? Well, you know, hindsight being 2020,

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which it always is there, there's just, you can look back on it and say,

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you know, there wasn't a real heart for self-defense.

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There was more a heart for dominance.

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And especially when I look back on the way that I treated my siblings,

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I got, I have a lot of remorse over some of the ways that I treated my siblings. I'm the oldest of five.

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And so I just look back and I'm so thankful for the wonderful relationship that

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I have now with each of them. but boy, I sure could have treated them better

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growing up. Yeah, yeah, understandable.

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Now, real quick, kind of while we're still in this same kind of a period of

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your life, the move that you guys did, how old were you when you guys moved

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and how was the move on you and life?

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So I was 15 when we moved.

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And I think for me, it was a huge adjustment. So we moved out here.

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My father has been in the ministry since I was born.

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And he moved here to help with a church that was, or I shouldn't say here.

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I'm not in Arizona anymore. more. But he moved to Arizona to help with the church there.

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And so I think from one perspective, it was something new. It was something exciting.

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Being the oldest, I was kind of the fearless one of the group,

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but it definitely changed a lot as well.

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All of the little business ventures I had going obviously kind of evaporated.

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And I don't know how much you know about Arizona, but while Colorado was lush

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with trees and grass and things to mow and rake and shovel, Arizona, not so much.

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So about the most you're going to get with landscaping as a 15-year-old kid

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in Arizona is pulling weeds and raking rocks.

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And so that kind of put the kibosh on that.

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But I was able to get a job. I started working for Safeway and did pretty well there once I turned 16.

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Martial arts also took a big change because in Colorado, going back to kind of that bully idea.

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I was just, I was undisputedly kind of the top of the class,

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even before I was officially ranked top or the oldest, it was just, it took to it naturally.

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And so while that was great, it didn't necessarily foster a spirit of growth.

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Well, I came to Phoenix and Phoenix being a much larger area where the company

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that I was a part of was actually founded.

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There were people that were just a lot better.

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And so I went from kind of being the top dog to being a nobody in a matter of moments.

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And I think that was really, really beneficial for part of my growth journey.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Now, when you were talking about kind of at the height of this martial arts,

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when you were, I think you said 19 and you were teaching martial arts,

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just from my own knowledge of your story,

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something else kind of happened at 19 that I feel like is a pivotal moment in your story.

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Would you unpack that for us? Yeah, absolutely.

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The age of 19 is huge because it was both the apex of who I was as well as the

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rock bottom that resulted in who I am.

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The successes that I had found growing up, and it really was, it was the Midas touch.

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Everything I did turned to gold and it really was enough to really lend to an

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already overinflated ego. go.

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And so when I was probably 18, I was paired up with some people that I was working

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with and all societally good people.

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We were all kind of doing the right thing, except there was one of us who had

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found some ways to kind of cook

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the books a little bit when it came to our instructing of martial arts.

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And so that kind of led me down a rabbit hole.

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I'm not a creative person by any any stretch of the imagination,

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but I am certainly an innovative person.

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And if you show me that something is possible, I'm going to show you how we

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can make that possibility better.

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And, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I did.

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He, he showed me that there was a possibility of, of skimming off the top of the books.

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And I said, well, if you can do it that way, then you can also do it this other,

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and this other, and this other, and this other, and this other way.

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Eventually, of course, when you get greedy and you do things that are the lack

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integrity, I think the Bible says that things that are done in secret are shouted from the housetops.

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And so that's, that kind of what happened. I was called on the carpet for it.

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I made up a lie about what my intentions were, that I was trying to find all

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of the problems with the system.

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And they bought that just for about as much truth as it contained.

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And I was, of course, fired.

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And so after being fired, of course, the reason that it was caught,

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all the books were being audited.

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And there was kind of a series of events that happened. But to kind of just distill it all down.

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I was fired. My best friend who originally kind of showed me that this was possible

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was under investigation.

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And we were both what we lacked in an integrity we made up for in creativity, I guess.

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And so one day as we were talking, we were talking about me starting up my own venture.

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And he was kind of scared a little

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bit because remember, I was 17 when I originally signed my contract.

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So my non-compete clause, I didn't feel was enforceable, but he was significantly older than me.

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And so his contract had been signed at an elder age.

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And so he was trying to figure out, you know, what are we going to do about

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that? Because, you know, eventually I know I'm getting fired too, basically.

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And so he made this comment. It was done in passing. I didn't really take it

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seriously, but he was like, you know, we should just burn the whole place down.

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And I was like, ah, you're stupid. Shut up. And within moments of that,

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I mean, it wasn't like it was even talked about really.

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It was just kind of in passing that the conversation ended and I didn't give it much thought.

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And it wasn't until probably a month or two later that it came up again with

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two mutual colleagues who said that they had overheard the same friend talking

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about the same idea, but this time in front of students.

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And they were pretty concerned about, you know, not only where this idea was

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going, but also the fact that it had been mentioned in front of other people.

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And that was kind of when it got serious because I was like still very insecure

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with myself, still lacking any integrity and courage in myself.

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And with some weird, weirdly placed

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sense of importance, I felt the best thing to do was to take charge.

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And all right, I'm going to talk to Josh about this. And we went toward that direction.

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But instead of, you know, hey,

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we should never have talked about this or this. This is a terrible idea.

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I more went at it from the perspective of you can't say things like that in front of students.

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Yes. And that's that kind of snowballed the the conversation into,

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you know, what were you even talking about?

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And eventually there was a plan that was put into place.

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And to make a very long story very short, when I was 19, me and three of my

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friends thought that it would be a bright idea to go light that building on

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fire, the office building where we worked.

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And so on, I believe it was June 13th of 2009,

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we all donned black attire and scaled an awning that allowed us to break a window

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in the second story offices of that office building.

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And we had a whole plan. The whole plan collapsed immediately after going in.

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I don't think any of us wanted to be there.

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I think we were all freaked out. I think if any one of us had said,

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I'm not doing this, the rest would have said, and we all would have left. But none of us did.

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I was too much of a coward to make such a statement.

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And so we broke the window. We entered into the office that we were supposed to disperse from.

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None of us ever left that that office. Most of us just left our gasoline that

00:15:10.949 --> 00:15:12.569

we had brought with us in that office.

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I was the first one out the window with one of the others close behind.

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And I was literally just running away as fast as I could when I saw the fireball

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erupt into the sky behind me.

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And the alarm went off. And my best friend, an older brother,

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he had apparently lit the match while he was still standing in that room.

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And I didn't see him again until after I pulled my truck around trying to look for him.

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And he was at that point kind of rolling around up on the awning with flames

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coming off of his clothing.

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I was unable to stop my car in time. I tried to make a U-turn,

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but in the time that I made the U-turn, the fire truck passed me.

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And he had said during the quote unquote planning phase, you can call what we

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did planning, that if anything went wrong, all of us were supposed to get out

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of there and preserve our lives

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as we were all much younger than him and that he would take care of it.

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So I made yet another cowardly move and I ran away.

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I drove away, really, and turned

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my phone off so I couldn't be tracked and drove away as fast as I could.

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I have no idea where I went. It's all just kind of a blur.

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But eventually, we all met up at my house and the other three of us.

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We concocted a lie that It's what we felt would be an alibi for all of us.

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And we left it at that. And to continue to try to fast forward through the story,

00:16:38.609 --> 00:16:42.929

the police called me the next day as his wife had indicated I was the last one

00:16:42.929 --> 00:16:47.009

to be seen with him, assuming that I would be able to lie my way out of that

00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:49.889

quandary, just like I had everything else in my life.

00:16:49.969 --> 00:16:54.129

I went to the police station and answered the questions in my most convincing tone.

00:16:54.309 --> 00:16:58.049

And they believed me for the exact amount of truth that was in my statements as well.

00:16:58.681 --> 00:17:02.801

And I found myself with the handcuffs being clasped around my wrists as they

00:17:02.801 --> 00:17:07.341

clipped shut and being led away, being charged with arson of an occupied structure

00:17:07.341 --> 00:17:10.541

and what was classified in Arizona as first degree murder.

00:17:10.801 --> 00:17:14.681

Not because they thought we intentionally killed him, but because when you commit

00:17:14.681 --> 00:17:17.701

a felony and someone dies, it's considered a capital murder.

00:17:17.901 --> 00:17:19.561

So it's classified the same as first degree.

00:17:20.021 --> 00:17:23.141

Wow. So your friend did die?

00:17:23.381 --> 00:17:28.301

Yes. The next day, I assumed he was in the hospital. I had no idea where he

00:17:28.301 --> 00:17:32.141

was, but to me, I'd watched apparently one too many episodes of CSI.

00:17:32.341 --> 00:17:36.321

And I thought, well, there's this giant database, so I'll find him.

00:17:36.481 --> 00:17:40.661

And so I called the police to file a missing persons report saying that we were

00:17:40.661 --> 00:17:44.221

supposed to leave and that he had taken off to run an errand and never returned.

00:17:44.401 --> 00:17:48.981

In case anyone's wondering, no such giant database exists, but they will charge

00:17:48.981 --> 00:17:53.861

you for filing a fraudulent report when they find out that the person was not

00:17:53.861 --> 00:17:55.021

missing and you were with him later.

00:17:55.121 --> 00:17:58.721

So that's a fun fact. But yeah, I tried filing a report.

00:17:58.961 --> 00:18:01.521

They were unable to find him. I didn't know what was going on.

00:18:01.561 --> 00:18:05.701

And it wasn't until I received a call from a mutual colleague later that day

00:18:05.701 --> 00:18:09.361

where they said that they thought they had found Josh's body at the scene that

00:18:09.361 --> 00:18:11.801

I learned that he had passed. Wow.

00:18:12.741 --> 00:18:16.601

Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. My

00:18:16.601 --> 00:18:20.421

how a series of bad

00:18:20.421 --> 00:18:24.261

decisions can just completely snowball and

00:18:24.261 --> 00:18:27.061

completely change the course of your

00:18:27.061 --> 00:18:29.941

life yeah yeah no one saw it

00:18:29.941 --> 00:18:36.121

coming uh not especially not me but but yeah no it went from uh i think i've

00:18:36.121 --> 00:18:41.361

said i was i went from being the the golden boy to the goober i went from being

00:18:41.361 --> 00:18:46.021

the the person that was doing good things to just being an absolute loser in

00:18:46.021 --> 00:18:48.101

a matter of matter of minutes Wow.

00:18:48.261 --> 00:18:51.521

So what happens next?

00:18:51.701 --> 00:18:56.681

After you're arrested, all of this, what happens?

00:18:57.583 --> 00:19:01.123

A long and very positive journey.

00:19:01.563 --> 00:19:04.683

And when I say positive, I don't mean fun. I don't mean comfortable.

00:19:04.823 --> 00:19:05.483

I don't mean entertaining.

00:19:05.883 --> 00:19:10.743

I mean that it was good for me. The arrest woke me up a little bit,

00:19:10.783 --> 00:19:12.563

but honestly, not as much as you would think.

00:19:12.903 --> 00:19:17.963

I was still very, you could say I was still drinking my own Kool-Aid, maybe you could say.

00:19:18.143 --> 00:19:22.363

And so because of that, I maintained my lie.

00:19:22.543 --> 00:19:26.163

I wasn't there. I didn't know what they were talking about. I was not guilty

00:19:26.163 --> 00:19:27.343

of what they were charging me of.

00:19:27.583 --> 00:19:31.463

And in my mind, I wasn't, it wasn't even so much that I believed that I didn't

00:19:31.463 --> 00:19:35.383

do it. It was that I was being very technical about it in my own mind.

00:19:35.483 --> 00:19:39.263

So in order to justify everything, I was charged with arson.

00:19:39.343 --> 00:19:44.323

Well, in my mind, I never lit a fire. I never lit a match, which is technically true.

00:19:44.643 --> 00:19:47.943

They were charging me with murder. Again, I didn't kill anybody.

00:19:48.123 --> 00:19:52.763

And so that was technically true. And so I just really perpetuated this idea

00:19:52.763 --> 00:19:54.163

that, that I was innocent.

00:19:54.363 --> 00:19:59.003

And that was compounded by the fact that anyone who's ever had any interaction

00:19:59.003 --> 00:20:03.583

with the law can affirm that your lawyer will tell you do not admit guilt under any circumstances.

00:20:04.123 --> 00:20:07.423

But that doesn't mean lie. It just means shut up is really what that means.

00:20:08.763 --> 00:20:11.463

So it took me a while. It took me a while.

00:20:11.543 --> 00:20:15.023

I want to say it took me at least a month or two to even admit to my attorney

00:20:15.023 --> 00:20:17.103

that I was there and admit to

00:20:17.103 --> 00:20:21.683

my attorney that I was at least culpable of what I felt I was culpable of.

00:20:21.963 --> 00:20:26.543

And then honestly, Kevin, It took, I mean, it happened over a series of time

00:20:26.543 --> 00:20:27.963

and there were gradual incremental.

00:20:29.223 --> 00:20:34.543

Acknowledgements, but I want to say it took at least six months before I was

00:20:34.543 --> 00:20:41.163

able to just reconcile the fact that it was my actions that were a part of this.

00:20:41.363 --> 00:20:47.243

It was probably a couple of years before I recognized that my actions had a ripple effect.

00:20:47.243 --> 00:20:50.623

And it was probably close to five years,

00:20:50.763 --> 00:20:56.823

I want to say, before I recognized that the natural born leadership calling

00:20:56.823 --> 00:21:04.103

that I carried actually did indeed lay on me a greater level of culpability

00:21:04.103 --> 00:21:05.683

than even the others possessed.

00:21:06.803 --> 00:21:13.983

Wow. Now, what would be the outcome of you being arrested in all of this this

00:21:13.983 --> 00:21:19.883

time? Yeah, the outcome was not what anybody, well, not what anybody that loved me would hope for.

00:21:20.023 --> 00:21:24.423

I eventually was offered a plea bargain, which for those that are not familiar

00:21:24.423 --> 00:21:28.983

with the law, basically meant that the state of Arizona would not take me to

00:21:28.983 --> 00:21:32.103

trial where I could be facing up to 25 to life.

00:21:32.103 --> 00:21:35.583

In fact, the very first conversation that my attorney and I had,

00:21:35.743 --> 00:21:40.563

he said to me through a bulletproof glass, my name is Jeffrey Kirchler.

00:21:40.583 --> 00:21:41.783

I'm your court appointed attorney.

00:21:42.143 --> 00:21:45.903

I will be your court appointed attorney for the duration of your pretrial proceedings

00:21:45.903 --> 00:21:49.323

unless the state chooses to seek the death penalty, at which point I will no

00:21:49.323 --> 00:21:51.943

longer be your court appointed attorney and they will assign another.

00:21:52.929 --> 00:21:57.509

Wow. And so that's that was a 19 year old punch in the face right there.

00:21:57.889 --> 00:22:02.869

So I was facing really some serious time. So they offered a plea bargain that

00:22:02.869 --> 00:22:07.029

would eliminate trial and and would just kind of leave it in the hands of the judge.

00:22:07.149 --> 00:22:12.249

And that plea bargain offered a range of between seven years in prison to 21

00:22:12.249 --> 00:22:18.049

years in prison. And I think everyone that loved me and knew me were all really

00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:20.489

thinking that seven years was too long.

00:22:20.729 --> 00:22:24.029

In fact, I think one of the things that really got me in trouble was that there's

00:22:24.029 --> 00:22:26.609

a way for a judge, if they really want to, they can basically say,

00:22:26.649 --> 00:22:29.369

I'm not accepting the plea bargain and I'm just going to sentence them less.

00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:34.649

It hardly ever happens, but that sliver of hope was very large in many of us.

00:22:34.729 --> 00:22:40.289

And I think there was, especially me, I'll just speak for my own naivety and my own ego.

00:22:40.289 --> 00:22:42.949

Ego I really felt like they were going to look and they were going to say this

00:22:42.949 --> 00:22:45.689

kid really all he did was actually break a window we're not going to

00:22:45.689 --> 00:22:48.529

send him to prison for seven years because this is still early in

00:22:48.529 --> 00:22:54.189

my in my kind of acknowledgement process but I think most of my family was thinking

00:22:54.189 --> 00:22:57.269

you know seven years I mean that's that's so much time the kid's never been

00:22:57.269 --> 00:23:00.829

in trouble he's never been arrested he's not he's not out there doing drugs

00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:04.869

he wasn't gangbanging you know all the things that that at least my circles

00:23:04.869 --> 00:23:07.809

would think and so we were all really hoping for seven years.

00:23:08.029 --> 00:23:13.409

As it turns out, many of the things that we thought would be mitigating circumstances

00:23:13.409 --> 00:23:17.149

were actually ended up to be aggravating circumstances.

00:23:17.789 --> 00:23:21.909

The fact that I had never been in trouble and had the upbringing I did was used

00:23:21.909 --> 00:23:25.389

as an aggravating circumstance to show that I should have known better and that

00:23:25.389 --> 00:23:28.549

I don't have bad influences and things like that.

00:23:28.609 --> 00:23:33.369

The fact that I wasn't on drugs indicated to them that this meant I was sociopathic.

00:23:33.369 --> 00:23:35.369

They actually had me clinically tested.

00:23:35.469 --> 00:23:38.409

I was determined not to be. So they weren't allowed to officially bring that

00:23:38.409 --> 00:23:39.669

up. But that was the allegation.

00:23:40.173 --> 00:23:46.253

And so the way the sentencing went was that my family had the opportunity to

00:23:46.253 --> 00:23:49.013

share why they felt that it should be seven years.

00:23:49.193 --> 00:23:52.933

And those that were victims, which included my best friend's family,

00:23:53.053 --> 00:23:58.213

and of course, the owners and employees of the business were all able to give their statements.

00:23:58.393 --> 00:24:03.353

And every single one of those that were on the prosecutor's side of the aisle asked for the full 21.

00:24:03.713 --> 00:24:08.953

Everyone on my side of the aisle asked for seven. I just asked for mercy and

00:24:08.953 --> 00:24:14.593

the judge split the difference and sentenced me to 14 years in the Department of Corrections. Wow.

00:24:15.393 --> 00:24:22.773

Wow. Wow. Wow. What was going through your head when that sentence came out? This can't be real.

00:24:23.213 --> 00:24:27.853

There's there's just no way there. There was so much so much disbelief.

00:24:27.853 --> 00:24:30.853

You know, I was remember at that point I was I was thinking,

00:24:30.893 --> 00:24:34.453

you know, one or two was what I was hoping for. So I think there was just there

00:24:34.453 --> 00:24:36.613

was a ton of disbelief that this was happening.

00:24:36.693 --> 00:24:41.033

It couldn't be real. And then I think there was also some sort of what I'm going to call misplaced hope.

00:24:41.153 --> 00:24:44.853

You know, everybody, everybody that's in the jail or prison system has,

00:24:44.933 --> 00:24:49.713

I shouldn't say everybody, but many people have this clinging hope that their

00:24:49.713 --> 00:24:54.153

case is going to be overturned or they're going to get relief or whatever.

00:24:54.153 --> 00:24:57.713

And so even as a part of sentencing, the judge will tell you,

00:24:57.733 --> 00:25:00.113

you are always welcome to file for post-conviction relief.

00:25:00.553 --> 00:25:03.253

So I think that was what I clung to in that moment.

00:25:03.793 --> 00:25:08.833

Yeah, it was just very surreal. I was sharing with someone just the other day.

00:25:08.853 --> 00:25:15.093

So the whole experience now, even looking back on it, is just extraordinarily surreal.

00:25:15.673 --> 00:25:19.273

If you were to look at me, Kevin, and you were to say, John,

00:25:19.333 --> 00:25:20.933

what are you talking about?

00:25:21.033 --> 00:25:26.413

You never went to prison. And that's, that's insane. What are you like? Are you okay?

00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:33.660

Like, I would have a hard time, like, arguing. It's still such a dream and just,

00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.080

like, such a surreal experience that as I reflect back on it,

00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:39.960

the only thing that I can really point to that I would say, no,

00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:41.080

it absolutely happened,

00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.540

is the amount of growth that came out of it all. Wow.

00:25:45.120 --> 00:25:53.120

Now, for myself, the idea of going to prison, especially for a sentence of 14

00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:59.420

years, it's literally gut-wrenchingly terrifying to me.

00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:04.740

Yeah, yeah, especially at 19. So 14 years is, I mean, that's a lifetime to a 19-year-old.

00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.840

Exactly. And, and you don't really know what to expect.

00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:12.880

You're, you're hoping for, hoping for the best. I was in county jail for nine

00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.060

months, kind of fighting the case, if you can call it that.

00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:20.460

And the God just really surrounded me with, with people that,

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:23.360

I don't know if they were good people, but for whatever reason,

00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.600

they, they seem to want to provide some level of help.

00:26:26.760 --> 00:26:29.680

And so they would, you know, give me a little, little tidbits like,

00:26:29.780 --> 00:26:33.100

Hey, you know, if you, you end up going to prison, here's, here's things that

00:26:33.100 --> 00:26:36.420

you need to know. No, unfortunately, most of them hadn't been there for a while

00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:37.860

and they didn't realize things had changed.

00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:41.140

So many of the pieces of advice that I was given, while I can see where there

00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:44.900

would have been value, it didn't end up serving me super well.

00:26:45.300 --> 00:26:51.980

And so, yeah, it was, man, again, just very surreal. And then my placement got canceled.

00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:55.460

So I was I went back to jail where they're supposed to, OK, you know,

00:26:55.460 --> 00:26:58.360

get you ready and then take you to prison. And usually that takes about a week.

00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:03.240

Well, a week came and went and I still wasn't gone and nobody could figure out why.

00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:07.360

And to this day, I don't know what happened, but I know there was a moment there

00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:11.740

where I was just, I was sure that the whole thing had fallen apart and that

00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:14.760

I was going home, and of course, that did not happen.

00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.220

Eventually, I think it was two weeks later or maybe even three,

00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:20.300

I was eventually transferred to the Department of Corrections,

00:27:20.340 --> 00:27:23.300

and I think where they really struggled was I think it was a classification

00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:26.140

question because they were trying to reconcile,

00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.180

the difference between such a serious crime, such a young person,

00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:31.740

and no previous backstory, story.

00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:35.440

And so they were trying to figure out how best to classify me in prison,

00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:38.520

because in jail, it's crime is all that matters. It doesn't matter what you're

00:27:38.520 --> 00:27:39.960

anything else in prison.

00:27:40.020 --> 00:27:43.520

They use other criteria to classify whether you're going to go to medium custody

00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:46.560

or minimum custody or maximum custody or whatever.

00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:51.000

So I think that that's what it was now. But anyways, yeah, I ended up going to prison.

00:27:51.300 --> 00:27:54.720

I did end up filing for post-conviction relief. Nothing happened.

00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:58.620

I also applied for something known as clemency, which is basically,

00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:02.700

I'm sorry, Sorry, I did it, but I'm doing better. Will you please take some time off my sentence?

00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.420

That also was not fruitful to my cause.

00:28:06.600 --> 00:28:12.920

And so I was in a position where I spent 14 years under the jurisdiction of

00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:16.780

the Department of Corrections, 12 of which was actually behind bars,

00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:21.100

and the other two was out on community supervision. Wow, wow, wow, wow.

00:28:22.040 --> 00:28:23.500

So, I mean...

00:28:24.753 --> 00:28:29.773

I don't even know how to summarize the idea of 12 years locked away in prison.

00:28:29.933 --> 00:28:35.513

But talk to me about life during that time in your life.

00:28:35.773 --> 00:28:39.553

I mean, like I said, 12 years, it's a big time to summarize.

00:28:39.713 --> 00:28:46.873

But give me a snapshot of what life kind of was and what did it take on?

00:28:47.173 --> 00:28:51.613

Well, when I had been given those tidbits of advice in jail,

00:28:51.713 --> 00:28:54.553

one of the things I was told is that when I got to prison, people would kind

00:28:54.553 --> 00:28:58.793

of just watch me for a couple of weeks, kind of see what I was about, how I carried myself.

00:28:59.233 --> 00:29:02.713

And then someone might approach me from different groups or whatever to,

00:29:02.713 --> 00:29:07.053

to find out, you know, kind of what I wanted my quote unquote prison career to look like.

00:29:07.253 --> 00:29:11.013

That is not what happened. What happened was I had been there about three minutes

00:29:11.013 --> 00:29:14.273

and I got attacked from behind by three people who were trying to make a name

00:29:14.273 --> 00:29:20.033

for themselves to see if I would fight back or if I was going to be a lame in the prison system.

00:29:20.053 --> 00:29:22.573

But I didn't know what was going on. And I knew that I wasn't getting,

00:29:22.593 --> 00:29:23.953

uh, getting raped today.

00:29:24.233 --> 00:29:28.133

And so I fought back with everything I had and with, you know,

00:29:28.133 --> 00:29:31.553

three black belts under, under my belt, I did okay.

00:29:31.593 --> 00:29:39.693

And that, that altercation and that moment set a tone that really, I think God used to help.

00:29:39.833 --> 00:29:44.673

And then just, there's just so many moments where I can only thank him for the

00:29:44.673 --> 00:29:49.433

wisdom that I, that I had where that moment kind of made it to where people

00:29:49.433 --> 00:29:53.373

were just like, okay, he's not causing. any problems. We'll, we'll leave him alone.

00:29:53.873 --> 00:29:57.753

They, there wasn't, you know, no gangs were trying to force me to join them.

00:29:57.833 --> 00:30:01.653

There was no, or there was less pressure to do stupid things.

00:30:02.053 --> 00:30:08.273

And I was again, somehow in dude with a little bit of wisdom where I knew where to draw lines.

00:30:08.413 --> 00:30:12.313

And if you draw lines in the beginning, it's a whole lot easier than drawing lines in the end.

00:30:12.453 --> 00:30:14.993

And I think that that that's obvious just even from the crime,

00:30:15.073 --> 00:30:18.753

right? I think if anybody in the beginning had just said, no, I'm not doing this.

00:30:18.793 --> 00:30:22.433

We never would have been on that roof. It's a lot harder once you're already there.

00:30:23.025 --> 00:30:27.025

And so once I was in prison, there was a lot of value that was there.

00:30:27.085 --> 00:30:33.725

While I was in jail, I had recognized that I was not the person that I claimed to be.

00:30:33.925 --> 00:30:39.585

I recognized that my way wasn't working, and I submitted to Christ as the Lord of my life.

00:30:39.725 --> 00:30:44.325

I had made a profession of faith earlier in my life, but at this point,

00:30:44.365 --> 00:30:47.505

I don't believe it was legitimate. I think I was looking for fire insurance back then.

00:30:47.685 --> 00:30:51.845

And so just kind of really submitting to him and so studying the Bible and eventually

00:30:51.845 --> 00:30:54.965

leading some Bible studies and things, got to prison.

00:30:55.225 --> 00:30:57.925

And it was really just, okay, I'm here.

00:30:58.205 --> 00:31:01.365

I'm hoping not to be here for too much longer. But while I'm here,

00:31:01.445 --> 00:31:02.805

how am I going to make the most of it?

00:31:02.905 --> 00:31:08.045

And the title that I have given to my published story is Redeeming the Time,

00:31:08.665 --> 00:31:11.225

because that was really the summary.

00:31:11.305 --> 00:31:15.425

You want a summary of 12 years, it was a desire to make the most of every moment,

00:31:15.585 --> 00:31:19.985

a desire to grow personally and to empower others to do the same,

00:31:20.085 --> 00:31:25.965

a desire and a execution of learning and growth and rehabilitation.

00:31:26.785 --> 00:31:31.325

And like I said, that is really, I can look at that now and say,

00:31:31.425 --> 00:31:35.965

if you want proof that this happened, look at who John was 15 years ago and

00:31:35.965 --> 00:31:37.125

look at who John is today.

00:31:37.265 --> 00:31:41.465

And you're going to have to acknowledge there's a dynamic difference. Yeah, yeah.

00:31:41.905 --> 00:31:46.985

Powerful, powerful, powerful. When you look back during this time,

00:31:47.685 --> 00:31:50.845

is there any moments that stand out the most to you as.

00:31:51.787 --> 00:31:57.187

A really transformational period or a moment in time that was extremely positive,

00:31:57.287 --> 00:32:02.247

that gave you encouragement, that gave you hope for the future? Any moments like that?

00:32:02.867 --> 00:32:06.687

Absolutely. Really, I mean, a ton, a ton of moments.

00:32:06.827 --> 00:32:12.827

But I think that most of them were the same type of moments that we have in

00:32:12.827 --> 00:32:14.507

our everyday lives that we just miss.

00:32:14.927 --> 00:32:20.327

And when you become acutely aware of them, it really, really just serves to

00:32:20.327 --> 00:32:21.427

encourage an individual.

00:32:21.967 --> 00:32:27.807

Often we're looking for major incidents instead of consistent grace.

00:32:28.307 --> 00:32:32.327

And the, the idea there is, I mean, there, there are times, right?

00:32:32.427 --> 00:32:35.207

There were, there were many times I found out at one point that there was actually

00:32:35.207 --> 00:32:39.787

a price put on my head that was actually removed and taken care of before I

00:32:39.787 --> 00:32:42.907

even knew about it, you know, before anything, anything happened.

00:32:42.947 --> 00:32:47.227

And so you have some major moments like that, or I think of a similar scenario

00:32:47.227 --> 00:32:51.627

where I was really working and dedicated to... I just moved to a new unit,

00:32:51.687 --> 00:32:55.947

being reclassified to minimum custody, was dedicated to working on some school

00:32:55.947 --> 00:32:57.687

stuff that I was working toward.

00:32:58.107 --> 00:33:01.567

And I was approached by someone I'd never even met before. And he said,

00:33:01.687 --> 00:33:03.387

hey, I'm getting ready to go home.

00:33:03.667 --> 00:33:07.987

And I think you would be the best candidate to replace me in my job.

00:33:08.107 --> 00:33:11.227

And I didn't know who he was. I didn't know what his job was.

00:33:11.367 --> 00:33:12.427

I didn't have any understanding.

00:33:12.927 --> 00:33:18.367

And it turns out that someone or someones had been observing me as I'd gotten to the new unit.

00:33:18.507 --> 00:33:22.767

Some people who had known me from previous units had put in some sort of a recommendation,

00:33:22.827 --> 00:33:28.247

but this was what could arguably be the job with the most responsibility on the unit.

00:33:28.647 --> 00:33:33.587

And I just was like, I didn't apply for this. I didn't ask for this. This is incredible.

00:33:33.907 --> 00:33:37.307

And those moments are just very encouraging. Those moments are,

00:33:37.427 --> 00:33:39.507

they provide personal inspiration.

00:33:39.587 --> 00:33:43.287

And they were, they were kind of just like, okay, you know, we're,

00:33:43.347 --> 00:33:45.207

we're, we're moving in the right direction.

00:33:45.247 --> 00:33:48.367

Now there were also many moments where you just question everything and it's

00:33:48.367 --> 00:33:49.647

like, man, what is going on?

00:33:49.747 --> 00:33:51.847

Why, why would that happen?

00:33:51.967 --> 00:33:55.927

I, that, that doesn't, that doesn't play into the way that I think things should be going.

00:33:56.478 --> 00:34:01.518

I think of the time where I helped run a Christmas service at one of the units

00:34:01.518 --> 00:34:08.858

and the senior chaplain of the complex took great offense that an inmate would

00:34:08.858 --> 00:34:14.738

be spearheading a religious event and took so much offense to it,

00:34:14.778 --> 00:34:19.098

in fact, that he tried to actually send me through disciplinary proceedings

00:34:19.098 --> 00:34:23.578

for usurping authority or manipulation of staff or something because

00:34:23.638 --> 00:34:28.818

he felt like I had had too much sway over the event that didn't work,

00:34:28.878 --> 00:34:33.858

but he was able to get me moved randomly off complex further away from my family.

00:34:34.038 --> 00:34:36.778

And it was like, seriously, like, I'm just trying to do the right thing.

00:34:36.838 --> 00:34:38.278

I'm trying to help. I'm trying to be a blessing.

00:34:38.378 --> 00:34:42.198

I'm trying to serve and this, but even in that scenario, you know,

00:34:42.198 --> 00:34:45.958

you flip back to the other side, I got to that new unit and that new unit had

00:34:45.958 --> 00:34:49.658

a deputy warden that really, really valued what's called peer education,

00:34:49.878 --> 00:34:52.938

inmate peer programming, which is something that I helped to develop while I

00:34:52.938 --> 00:34:55.038

was in the Department of Corrections.

00:34:55.158 --> 00:35:00.698

And so we developed one of the most comprehensive programs in the state while

00:35:00.698 --> 00:35:03.238

I was there with incredible success ratio.

00:35:03.498 --> 00:35:06.878

And it was very fulfilling to be able to serve in that place.

00:35:07.018 --> 00:35:12.318

And so for every disappointment and discouragement, there was an inspiration and encouragement.

00:35:12.798 --> 00:35:18.078

And when you just kind of look back on the summation of the entire experience.

00:35:18.878 --> 00:35:23.738

You have in the title of your podcast, Grace, and that really,

00:35:23.838 --> 00:35:27.938

I feel like, very well summarizes the entire experience.

00:35:28.258 --> 00:35:32.878

It was no cakewalk. It was certainly not fun many times, but there were so many

00:35:32.878 --> 00:35:34.978

moments where I can just say, man,

00:35:35.737 --> 00:35:39.777

I don't know how that happened the way it did, but boy, I'm sure thankful it

00:35:39.777 --> 00:35:42.197

was or it did. Yeah, absolutely.

00:35:43.077 --> 00:35:47.497

I admire your insight.

00:35:47.857 --> 00:35:53.897

I admire your mindset when you look back on this and you share this with us

00:35:53.897 --> 00:36:02.797

today of a experience that I spoke of earlier that terrifies me, shakes me at my core.

00:36:02.797 --> 00:36:09.817

And yet I listened to you. And even though it was that you have these moments

00:36:09.817 --> 00:36:17.677

where you not only turned your life around and got yourself this own transformation,

00:36:17.977 --> 00:36:21.257

but we're also helping to lead others in it as well.

00:36:21.997 --> 00:36:26.937

Yeah. And there's so much intrinsic value in that, right?

00:36:27.417 --> 00:36:31.717

You have to address internal issues before you can really help anybody else.

00:36:31.837 --> 00:36:35.717

And so I think that was very, very important for me to acknowledge my own lack

00:36:35.717 --> 00:36:40.837

of character, my own lack of integrity, my own issues, and really take a moment

00:36:40.837 --> 00:36:45.037

to just say, okay, that's not okay. And this needs to be addressed.

00:36:45.297 --> 00:36:48.817

And that wasn't like a singular decision, you know, that has to be,

00:36:48.817 --> 00:36:51.177

that decision has to be made every single day.

00:36:51.337 --> 00:36:58.777

But while that decision has to be made, there is so much purpose in helping

00:36:58.777 --> 00:37:00.217

others on their journey.

00:37:00.754 --> 00:37:06.094

That was such a privilege because for pretty much the entire time I was incarcerated,

00:37:06.334 --> 00:37:08.534

I got to help people earn their GEDs.

00:37:08.554 --> 00:37:13.034

I got to help people participate in peer education classes and rehabilitation

00:37:13.034 --> 00:37:19.214

courses and learn new skills and look at their own character and assess their

00:37:19.214 --> 00:37:24.314

own tendencies and habits and things like that. And I got to lead spiritually.

00:37:24.694 --> 00:37:29.074

I got to serve in the churches there that are in prison and got to be a blessing

00:37:29.074 --> 00:37:30.914

in that way and got to help the community.

00:37:31.014 --> 00:37:34.414

We would do fundraisers and support charitable causes.

00:37:34.754 --> 00:37:39.494

And so just, I really got to be a part of a ton of really great stuff and found

00:37:39.494 --> 00:37:44.174

incredible purpose. And you talk about like a light bulb moments a minute ago. I'll never forget.

00:37:44.294 --> 00:37:49.534

It was after one of my, one of my experiences where I did not get the relief I was looking for.

00:37:49.654 --> 00:37:52.514

And I remember thinking or recognizing, not thinking to myself,

00:37:52.594 --> 00:37:56.774

but recognizing that the souls that were in front of me, the ones I was serving

00:37:56.774 --> 00:38:01.914

were just as important as the ones I was trying to get out to deal with and to serve.

00:38:01.914 --> 00:38:07.854

And that was a moment of clarity that I really appreciate that so many times

00:38:07.854 --> 00:38:09.314

I feel like, in fact, even people,

00:38:09.414 --> 00:38:13.014

well-meaning people that really wanted the best for me would say things like,

00:38:13.094 --> 00:38:15.754

well, you know, you're in a time of preparation and when you get out,

00:38:15.834 --> 00:38:17.334

you're going to make such an impact.

00:38:17.654 --> 00:38:19.634

And, and they were, you know, they believed in me. They were,

00:38:19.634 --> 00:38:23.414

they were trying to be encouraging, but it speaks to this idea that what I was

00:38:23.414 --> 00:38:28.234

doing there was less important than those people were, were less impacted or

00:38:28.234 --> 00:38:32.474

less needful or less deserving maybe. And that's just simply not true.

00:38:32.594 --> 00:38:41.094

The reality that is very, very impressed on my heart now is that those souls were just as valuable.

00:38:41.254 --> 00:38:44.794

Those individuals deserved just as much dignity.

00:38:44.974 --> 00:38:48.474

And I had the privilege for 12 years to serve that community.

00:38:48.654 --> 00:38:54.894

And I lived every day with the ambition to leave that community a better place than I found it.

00:38:54.974 --> 00:38:59.134

Whether I succeeded, I'm sure is up for debate, but I certainly gave it my best effort.

00:38:59.683 --> 00:39:02.703

Yeah. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.

00:39:03.043 --> 00:39:07.523

My last question that I'm really curious about before we kind of start moving

00:39:07.523 --> 00:39:12.843

forward in your story is you talk a lot about leading, you know,

00:39:12.843 --> 00:39:15.063

groups and with your faith and stuff.

00:39:15.063 --> 00:39:19.923

And what is faith like behind bars?

00:39:20.143 --> 00:39:27.063

Because I think so many of us can maybe think that these horrible people,

00:39:27.203 --> 00:39:32.823

quote unquote, who are in prison, that they're probably not Christians or they don't go to church.

00:39:33.023 --> 00:39:35.883

So talk to me about that whole aspect.

00:39:36.363 --> 00:39:40.563

That's a great question, Kevin, because I think there's more than one answer.

00:39:40.663 --> 00:39:44.123

And I'm going to do my very best to not take the rest of our podcast talking about it.

00:39:45.183 --> 00:39:48.683

But yeah, it's a fantastic question. So first and foremost,

00:39:48.843 --> 00:39:52.643

I'll say that one of the other epiphanies that I had,

00:39:52.803 --> 00:39:55.863

and I think it's necessary for all of us to have, I think that if there's anyone

00:39:55.863 --> 00:40:00.143

on this podcast that disagrees with my next statement, I would just ask you

00:40:00.143 --> 00:40:04.223

to really search your heart and kind of just ask like what God's heart is on this.

00:40:04.523 --> 00:40:07.663

And if you come to a different conclusion, that's fine. But this is something

00:40:07.663 --> 00:40:13.583

that I believe very strongly. And that and that is that I did not need God's grace any less.

00:40:14.546 --> 00:40:17.586

Than the very worst of the people that I was surrounded by.

00:40:17.746 --> 00:40:23.606

That was a pivotal moment in my journey where I recognized that these horrible

00:40:23.606 --> 00:40:26.726

people were not any worse than I was.

00:40:27.246 --> 00:40:33.186

Maybe it manifested differently in their life. Maybe their sin and their reality

00:40:33.186 --> 00:40:35.886

impacted people more negatively.

00:40:36.146 --> 00:40:41.086

But when it came down to the root core of character, I was just as bad as them.

00:40:41.186 --> 00:40:44.866

And I think that was really important for me to understand Because once you

00:40:44.866 --> 00:40:47.646

understand things through that framework, at this point, it's not like,

00:40:47.686 --> 00:40:49.746

oh, they're horrible people. How could God love them?

00:40:49.866 --> 00:40:53.906

It's more like, I'm sure glad that God loves horrible people because that's me.

00:40:54.326 --> 00:40:58.906

And it really changes the framework. With that being said, I do think you kind

00:40:58.906 --> 00:41:02.046

of find three different classifications of Christians.

00:41:02.246 --> 00:41:08.306

Maybe that's oversimplifying it, but three general classifications of Christians in the prison context.

00:41:08.586 --> 00:41:12.126

You have what I'm going to call the jailhouse Jesus Christians.

00:41:12.126 --> 00:41:15.266

These are the ones that find Jesus every time they come to jail.

00:41:15.406 --> 00:41:18.106

It gives them a sense of purpose. It gives them a sense of community.

00:41:18.246 --> 00:41:20.026

It might keep them out of trouble.

00:41:20.226 --> 00:41:25.126

And so it's very convenient for them. But the relationship that they claim to

00:41:25.126 --> 00:41:29.826

have has never impacted their life in such a way that it keeps them from coming back.

00:41:29.986 --> 00:41:35.526

It just kind of provides them a way to meaningfully go through the experience with each repetition.

00:41:35.866 --> 00:41:39.526

Those are ones that I think are very frustrating for many families and why the

00:41:39.526 --> 00:41:44.626

idea of jailhouse Jesus became popular because there was a time back in maybe

00:41:44.626 --> 00:41:47.886

the late 80s, early 90s, where if somebody went before a judge and said,

00:41:47.946 --> 00:41:51.886

I found Jesus and my life has changed, the judge would say, okay, cool.

00:41:52.026 --> 00:41:55.026

I believe in redemption and we're going to change your sentence.

00:41:55.126 --> 00:41:57.246

We're going to give you less. We're going to let you out, whatever it was.

00:41:57.466 --> 00:42:01.686

And judges quickly became disenfranchised with the number of people who claimed

00:42:01.686 --> 00:42:05.806

radical life change only to see them come back months or years later.

00:42:05.946 --> 00:42:09.306

So that's certainly a group that's there and it's disappointing.

00:42:09.306 --> 00:42:11.926

Disappointing, but you never know who those people are, right?

00:42:11.986 --> 00:42:14.666

You never know which time it's actually going to resonate.

00:42:14.906 --> 00:42:19.006

You never know which time the former seeds will take root.

00:42:19.206 --> 00:42:24.326

And so trying not to be judgmental and trying not to view them in a diminished

00:42:24.326 --> 00:42:28.046

light, again, just trying to serve the people that are in front of you.

00:42:28.126 --> 00:42:31.906

The second group of Christians are the just straight up hypocrites,

00:42:31.966 --> 00:42:32.846

the straight up hypocrites.

00:42:32.966 --> 00:42:37.846

You have the individuals that are are literally in church because that is a

00:42:37.846 --> 00:42:40.086

place where they can meet up with people from other buildings.

00:42:40.246 --> 00:42:41.506

That's where they're passing drugs.

00:42:41.766 --> 00:42:44.986

That's where they're swapping, you know, notes and letters.

00:42:45.466 --> 00:42:49.546

Sometimes it's because they're in some form of, uh, of, of trouble on the unit,

00:42:49.686 --> 00:42:53.446

whether that's administrative trouble and they're trying to prove that they're,

00:42:53.446 --> 00:42:56.266

you know, doing the right thing, or maybe it's, they're in trouble with the

00:42:56.266 --> 00:43:00.226

other inmates and they're, they're trying to gain some level of, of protection by,

00:43:00.326 --> 00:43:03.586

you know, I'm a Christian and, and I don't know what what they thought that

00:43:03.586 --> 00:43:06.246

would mean, because I sure saw a whole lot of pseudo-Christians,

00:43:06.714 --> 00:43:11.794

get mollywhopped because their actions did not align up with their stated beliefs.

00:43:12.134 --> 00:43:15.254

But those are less frustrating because they're easy to identify.

00:43:15.414 --> 00:43:18.794

And I said for many, many years while I was in prison, you can be just about

00:43:18.794 --> 00:43:21.614

anybody you want in the prison setting as long as you're consistent.

00:43:21.854 --> 00:43:25.854

And it's the inconsistent ones that just nobody has any respect for whatsoever.

00:43:26.154 --> 00:43:29.934

And so those straight hypocrites, nobody respected them. The Christians didn't

00:43:29.934 --> 00:43:31.954

trust them. Of course, we tried to love them.

00:43:32.014 --> 00:43:36.874

We tried to give them grace, but there was no real camaraderie or brotherly

00:43:36.874 --> 00:43:42.494

love because we simultaneously knew that it was, in many cases, a facade.

00:43:42.634 --> 00:43:47.354

So we just tried to plant seeds as we were able and love them in the best way that we knew how.

00:43:47.594 --> 00:43:50.294

And meanwhile, no one out of the yard respects them either because,

00:43:50.354 --> 00:43:52.294

again, they know that they're one way.

00:43:52.374 --> 00:43:55.334

You're in a fishbowl. Everyone knows everything you're doing in that setting.

00:43:55.394 --> 00:43:58.814

There is no secrecy. There is no privacy. There is no sneaking around.

00:43:59.354 --> 00:44:03.174

Everyone knows you're You're kind of in the middle of the open air.

00:44:03.354 --> 00:44:07.154

And so people know and people just don't respect them. And then you have those

00:44:07.154 --> 00:44:09.034

that are just trying to serve God.

00:44:09.254 --> 00:44:13.954

And the cool thing about the prison context is, in large part,

00:44:14.074 --> 00:44:18.914

the whole separation of denominations and whether or not you're of the right

00:44:18.914 --> 00:44:23.374

brand of Christianity kind of goes out the window. There's a little bit of that.

00:44:23.474 --> 00:44:27.994

There are some kind of cults that coalesce there. But if you believe that Jesus

00:44:27.994 --> 00:44:32.434

is God and that he came and paid for your sins, you're probably going to just

00:44:32.434 --> 00:44:34.734

find the other people that believe the same thing.

00:44:34.854 --> 00:44:37.694

And you're really going to find fellowship and unity in that scenario.

00:44:38.054 --> 00:44:44.474

And I've had many, many people who have said to me that going into the prison

00:44:44.474 --> 00:44:49.174

system as a volunteer has shown them what church can really look like.

00:44:49.174 --> 00:44:55.854

That, you know, they just, the authenticity of the singing and the passion of

00:44:55.854 --> 00:45:00.194

the prayers and things where people are just, they're not encumbered by all

00:45:00.194 --> 00:45:03.034

of the distractions that exist out here in the free world.

00:45:03.618 --> 00:45:07.278

And they really have nothing better to do than just study.

00:45:07.418 --> 00:45:10.878

And so you have some theologians in there. I mean, people that you would try

00:45:10.878 --> 00:45:13.458

to have a conversation with and you'd think, oh, they're an inmate.

00:45:13.638 --> 00:45:17.798

I'm going to go in there and I'll try to dumb it down for them and hopefully

00:45:17.798 --> 00:45:18.938

I don't speak over their head.

00:45:19.038 --> 00:45:23.958

And then they'll ask you some question about the disposition of Christ on the

00:45:23.958 --> 00:45:27.698

Mount of Transfiguration and whether or not that was a Christology or whether

00:45:27.698 --> 00:45:30.278

that was an actual metaphysical transformation.

00:45:30.278 --> 00:45:33.918

I mean, and you'll be like, yeah, I never heard half those terms.

00:45:33.958 --> 00:45:35.458

So I'm going to get back to you on that.

00:45:35.578 --> 00:45:40.698

And so you have people that just spend an incredible amount of time that studying

00:45:40.698 --> 00:45:43.818

and learning and trying to develop their faith.

00:45:43.918 --> 00:45:47.058

And so it's really kind of a three part beast.

00:45:47.058 --> 00:45:52.238

I think that in that last group, there is maybe a subgroup that I would have

00:45:52.238 --> 00:45:57.338

to say you never really know if they belong in the first group or the third group,

00:45:57.398 --> 00:45:58.838

because they are usually some

00:45:58.838 --> 00:46:02.958

of the most studied and the most passionate and the most well-behaved.

00:46:02.958 --> 00:46:07.578

And so from all outward appearance, they're very sincere and you can only give

00:46:07.578 --> 00:46:08.678

them the benefit of the doubt.

00:46:08.918 --> 00:46:13.398

But you wonder sometimes not because of their actions, but because they genuinely

00:46:13.398 --> 00:46:17.678

believe that it is God's will for them to get out of prison ASAP.

00:46:17.958 --> 00:46:23.618

And so you wonder at times, are they studying and being a part of everything

00:46:23.618 --> 00:46:27.198

because they would be willing to go to prison for Jesus?

00:46:27.618 --> 00:46:30.958

Or are they doing it because they're hoping Jesus will get them out of prison?

00:46:30.958 --> 00:46:35.238

And that was something that was always very burdensome to me because there are

00:46:35.238 --> 00:46:39.818

some really dear brothers that I know in there that just, man,

00:46:39.958 --> 00:46:44.458

they've been clinging to this idea that it's not God's will for them to be there.

00:46:44.778 --> 00:46:47.698

And it's like, well, he still has you there, if nothing else.

00:46:47.878 --> 00:46:51.198

Maybe he is going to bring you out sooner rather than later.

00:46:51.318 --> 00:46:55.058

But I know when I study the Bible, I see a whole lot more people going into

00:46:55.058 --> 00:46:59.158

prison for doing the right thing than I see God getting people out of prison

00:46:59.158 --> 00:47:00.538

after they've done the wrong thing.

00:47:00.958 --> 00:47:05.738

And so I think that there's there's that kind of subgroup that you pray for

00:47:05.738 --> 00:47:09.798

them, you love them, and you really hope that the legitimacy is as legitimate

00:47:09.798 --> 00:47:12.238

as it appears. Yeah. Wow.

00:47:13.078 --> 00:47:19.038

Very, very interesting. I love the way that you could explain that,

00:47:19.118 --> 00:47:23.278

answer that question broken down into the three segments.

00:47:23.518 --> 00:47:30.018

Very interesting. It's literally a it's a community within the prison.

00:47:30.642 --> 00:47:37.062

Of people of all different shapes and sizes and beliefs and prerogatives.

00:47:37.222 --> 00:47:43.682

And to hear you break that down, that was really cool. So thank you for taking the time to do that.

00:47:43.902 --> 00:47:46.622

Yeah, it's basically a microcosm of society.

00:47:46.922 --> 00:47:50.122

It's just on a more visible display.

00:47:50.502 --> 00:47:55.682

Yes. So, I mean, you have those same groups in the real world with just maybe different motives.

00:47:55.882 --> 00:47:59.542

Maybe it's not to get out of prison. Maybe it's to restore a marriage or whatever.

00:47:59.762 --> 00:48:02.722

You have the same people that are, you know, just straight hypocrites,

00:48:02.782 --> 00:48:05.642

whatever I was. I was that person. I was the person that was completely different

00:48:05.642 --> 00:48:07.522

on Saturday night than I was on Sunday morning.

00:48:07.622 --> 00:48:11.362

That was that was me to the core so that the groups exist out here.

00:48:11.462 --> 00:48:13.562

They're just not as clearly on display.

00:48:13.822 --> 00:48:19.642

And prison is very, very much a microcosm of the outside world. Yeah. Yeah.

00:48:19.942 --> 00:48:23.362

Would you end up serving all 14 years?

00:48:23.662 --> 00:48:27.942

With the understanding that two of those years were technically outside under

00:48:27.942 --> 00:48:31.242

community supervision, the answer is absolutely yes. I served every day of it.

00:48:31.462 --> 00:48:34.642

Okay. So 12 years behind bars. Correct.

00:48:34.922 --> 00:48:37.782

Talk to me about getting out of prison.

00:48:38.062 --> 00:48:44.002

During my time, I had, as I've mentioned, placed a great emphasis on growth.

00:48:44.242 --> 00:48:48.542

And one of the things that I very firmly believed in is the best time to start

00:48:48.542 --> 00:48:51.122

preparing to get out is the day you walk in.

00:48:51.662 --> 00:48:54.742

That was a piece of advice that someone had given me along the way.

00:48:54.842 --> 00:48:57.382

And I tried to embody that and live that.

00:48:57.502 --> 00:49:03.902

And so part of my efforts to get ready to get out was to ask people who had

00:49:03.902 --> 00:49:09.002

gotten out what to expect, what I should be looking at facing and what things

00:49:09.002 --> 00:49:10.542

I should be prepared to overcome.

00:49:10.782 --> 00:49:13.322

And one of the things that are many of the things I've been told,

00:49:13.342 --> 00:49:16.522

but one of them was basically how difficult it was going to be,

00:49:16.562 --> 00:49:18.562

that the transition was going to be very harsh.

00:49:18.742 --> 00:49:22.002

Some examples, you don't have a refrigerator in prison.

00:49:22.162 --> 00:49:25.782

And so I heard stories from one person who would literally just stand there

00:49:25.782 --> 00:49:28.302

with the refrigerator and open and close it because they just,

00:49:28.322 --> 00:49:30.662

it was like they were in a tick. They couldn't continue.

00:49:30.982 --> 00:49:34.842

Something else, you never walk barefoot in prison. You always wear like,

00:49:34.922 --> 00:49:37.602

they call them shower shoes, but basically they're just sandals,

00:49:37.602 --> 00:49:38.942

like beach sandals or whatever.

00:49:39.142 --> 00:49:43.142

And so the feel of carpet on your feet, the ability to make a decision.

00:49:43.302 --> 00:49:47.022

Yes, there's a commissary where you can buy little snacks, but to walk down

00:49:47.022 --> 00:49:51.062

one aisle of the store and see nothing but cereals and to be able to make that

00:49:51.062 --> 00:49:53.062

decision would just paralyze people.

00:49:53.500 --> 00:49:58.840

And so I was prepared for this. I was prepared for a difficult transition and

00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:00.740

I was geared up and ready to go.

00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:05.720

I walked out of prison that first day and my brother was there to pick me up.

00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.420

We weren't 100% certain what day I was getting out, which is probably a longer story.

00:50:09.500 --> 00:50:13.020

But bottom line is, is the state of Arizona has like a range that they can let you out.

00:50:13.120 --> 00:50:17.180

And so instead of breaking my family's hearts by having them expect day one,

00:50:17.220 --> 00:50:20.020

when it was actually going to be day 30, I just told them day 30.

00:50:20.140 --> 00:50:24.380

And then when I got out on day 10, most everybody but my brother was surprised.

00:50:24.580 --> 00:50:25.820

So that was a really neat experience.

00:50:26.040 --> 00:50:29.540

But in any case, I got out, walked in my brother's vehicle.

00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.880

He handed me... We talked. My brother was extremely supportive.

00:50:33.060 --> 00:50:37.160

I could spend two different podcasts just talking about the wonderful support

00:50:37.160 --> 00:50:39.360

that my brother provided over the years of my incarceration.

00:50:39.680 --> 00:50:43.880

But he was there. He handed me one of his old phones. And he said,

00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.200

it's already hooked up and ready for you. And the first month is paid for.

00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:50.760

And we had talked, I told him I didn't want to be a charity case.

00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:54.300

I wanted to try to work through things and I was going to be getting a job.

00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.800

He said, so you can start paying your part of the bill on month two.

00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.020

And somehow, I honestly don't know how, I knew how to use the phone.

00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.360

Hadn't touched a phone like that in 50, well, never really, never a phone like

00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:07.420

that 15 years before or 12 years before those phones didn't exist.

00:51:07.940 --> 00:51:12.220

And I had worked hard in there to remain up to date with technology.

00:51:12.220 --> 00:51:15.980

I was one of the few inmates that almost always had access to a computer due

00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:17.020

to the work that I was doing.

00:51:17.080 --> 00:51:22.480

But we were talking desktops with Windows XP, not the latest version of Galaxy

00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:23.340

smartphones. our phones.

00:51:23.560 --> 00:51:27.780

And so somehow I actually pretty much knew what I was doing.

00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.560

And we surprised my cousin for breakfast.

00:51:30.660 --> 00:51:35.620

And somehow I had no problem engaging with the waitress or ordering off the menu.

00:51:35.860 --> 00:51:41.600

And we surprised my parents at lunch. And somehow I had no issue engaging the

00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:44.740

counter at lunch and engaging in public with my parents.

00:51:44.900 --> 00:51:48.180

And I could just keep going on. The bottom line is, is this,

00:51:48.220 --> 00:51:50.260

I kept waiting for the ball to drop.

00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:57.020

I kept waiting for the PTSD to hit. I kept waiting for my just world to get rocked by something.

00:51:57.220 --> 00:52:01.760

And it never happened. It never happened. I walked out and the transition was

00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:05.280

as smooth as anyone could have ever asked for.

00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.260

My brother probably paid me what has to date been one of the largest compliments I've received.

00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:14.660

He said it was like two days after I got out and he was talking about the first day.

00:52:14.780 --> 00:52:18.520

He said, it was really interesting watching you kind of navigate that first

00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:20.120

day. It was almost like you never left.

00:52:20.240 --> 00:52:24.100

And to go into prison, I mean, the people that work in the prisons will tell

00:52:24.100 --> 00:52:26.440

you that they are quickly institutionalized.

00:52:26.997 --> 00:52:29.997

And that their ability to navigate the outside world changes.

00:52:30.117 --> 00:52:33.997

In fact, my now father-in-law works in the federal correction system.

00:52:34.237 --> 00:52:38.477

And he'll tell you that he is institutionalized, that he does not like people,

00:52:38.617 --> 00:52:40.177

that he kind of is a recluse.

00:52:40.457 --> 00:52:44.257

And so, I mean, for me to have been there, not even getting to go home every

00:52:44.257 --> 00:52:48.197

day, but just there for 12 years straight, never seeing the outside of those

00:52:48.197 --> 00:52:53.797

fences, man, Kevin, I just can't explain the amount of grace that I feel was conferred to me in that.

00:52:53.877 --> 00:52:59.517

And as I recalled back on my time of incarceration, I thought of a few things.

00:52:59.537 --> 00:53:02.217

And I thought of how many times I had been in trouble.

00:53:02.257 --> 00:53:04.577

And you think, well, what do you mean trouble? I thought you were doing all these good things.

00:53:04.697 --> 00:53:07.737

Well, you think back on the time that the Christmas service happened.

00:53:07.777 --> 00:53:09.957

And that wasn't the only time something like that happened.

00:53:10.237 --> 00:53:13.837

If I looked back every time that I got in quote unquote trouble,

00:53:14.077 --> 00:53:17.157

it all centered around the same basic idea.

00:53:17.337 --> 00:53:21.857

And that idea could be summarized by one of the counselors who particularly

00:53:21.857 --> 00:53:25.557

did not like me, where she constantly kept telling me, John,

00:53:25.697 --> 00:53:27.657

you need to understand your place.

00:53:27.977 --> 00:53:32.537

You need to remember what color you're wearing. You need to remember you're an inmate.

00:53:32.637 --> 00:53:35.177

Because I was doing a lot of things that inmates wouldn't do.

00:53:35.257 --> 00:53:37.537

I was running programs and I was working with administration.

00:53:37.657 --> 00:53:42.797

And so I would just try to help. And often that helpfulness would be either

00:53:42.797 --> 00:53:46.177

misunderstood, but more often not misunderstood, just disliked.

00:53:46.177 --> 00:53:50.137

Just how dare an inmate have the the right to, to do that.

00:53:50.277 --> 00:53:54.077

And that happens enough. And it did, it happened quite a few times where you

00:53:54.077 --> 00:53:55.757

begin to question yourself, or at least I did.

00:53:55.837 --> 00:53:58.477

I started to question, Hey, man, am I the one that's in the wrong?

00:53:58.517 --> 00:54:01.357

Like I'm trying to help. I'm trying to serve. I'm trying to be humble,

00:54:01.417 --> 00:54:03.637

but man, maybe, maybe I'm the problem.

00:54:03.937 --> 00:54:07.437

Maybe the issue is not anybody else. Maybe, maybe it's me.

00:54:07.797 --> 00:54:12.597

And, uh, I really struggled with that for the last like year or so of my incarceration.

00:54:12.917 --> 00:54:18.817

But when I got out and the transition was so seamless, it occurred to me that

00:54:18.817 --> 00:54:21.637

the problem was not that I did not know my place.

00:54:21.737 --> 00:54:24.437

The problem was that my place was not in there.

00:54:25.044 --> 00:54:31.224

And so when I got back out here and I was back in a world that I fit in much

00:54:31.224 --> 00:54:36.304

better with, I was able to step into that role of a contributing member of the community.

00:54:36.444 --> 00:54:40.024

I was able to join with a church. I was able to serve in that church.

00:54:40.144 --> 00:54:43.564

I was able to take a good job. I was able to add value. you.

00:54:43.724 --> 00:54:50.644

And I am extremely thankful for the opportunities that I've had to engage that

00:54:50.644 --> 00:54:55.264

same level of grace and that same heart for service in this outside community

00:54:55.264 --> 00:54:58.244

as I was able to do inside. Yeah, absolutely.

00:54:59.104 --> 00:55:03.444

Now, you were put under probation for two years?

00:55:03.964 --> 00:55:08.624

Not probation. Probation is administered by the county. This was administered by the state.

00:55:08.844 --> 00:55:12.344

Used to it have been called parole, but they've done away with the term parole

00:55:12.344 --> 00:55:14.084

and it's now called community supervision.

00:55:14.404 --> 00:55:18.484

For those that don't know any difference, you can call it probation or whatever,

00:55:18.684 --> 00:55:22.084

but technically it's administered by the state and parole or community supervision

00:55:22.084 --> 00:55:25.584

is usually much easier than probation.

00:55:25.784 --> 00:55:29.984

Probation usually has classes that you have to attend and often you have to

00:55:29.984 --> 00:55:31.764

pay for various aspects of it.

00:55:31.944 --> 00:55:36.004

In my case, I only had to pay. I had to pay, I think it was like $65 a month.

00:55:36.244 --> 00:55:38.684

Then of course I needed to finish paying off my restitution,

00:55:38.844 --> 00:55:41.144

which I was able to do within a month or two of getting out of prison.

00:55:41.144 --> 00:55:43.124

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Perfect.

00:55:43.544 --> 00:55:47.004

So you're out of prison.

00:55:47.144 --> 00:55:54.684

You talk about this kind of seamless transition back into quote unquote real life.

00:55:55.535 --> 00:56:00.115

So where does life go? Did you have a plan or not?

00:56:00.455 --> 00:56:04.215

I definitely had a plan, but it was a loose plan because I recognized that I

00:56:04.215 --> 00:56:05.195

didn't know what I didn't know.

00:56:05.395 --> 00:56:09.235

My plan was to spend the first month basically being present,

00:56:09.395 --> 00:56:14.415

spending time with family and friends, experiencing things, not trying to rush

00:56:14.415 --> 00:56:18.875

things, but also keeping an eye out for where I might be able to add value in terms of work.

00:56:19.455 --> 00:56:22.255

During that month, my brother, the same brother that was very,

00:56:22.315 --> 00:56:26.075

very supportive and encouraging, had actually spoken with his employer.

00:56:26.175 --> 00:56:29.995

And he wasn't trying to get me a job. What he was trying to do was actually buy me some time.

00:56:30.275 --> 00:56:35.075

He had basically said, hey, as you guys all know, I've got a lot of projects I'm working on.

00:56:35.135 --> 00:56:40.235

I would like to bring my brother on in a contractor role to help me finish some of these things up.

00:56:40.295 --> 00:56:43.275

That'll give him a little bit of income, and it'll give him an opportunity to

00:56:43.275 --> 00:56:47.495

figure out where he wants to go, what value he wants to add, etc.

00:56:48.115 --> 00:56:51.835

Apparently, I wasn't a part of those conversations, but apparently there was some apprehension.

00:56:51.915 --> 00:56:55.555

Some other people were brought into the conversation and it was determined that

00:56:55.555 --> 00:56:59.555

while they were okay with bringing me on as a contractor, they did not want

00:56:59.555 --> 00:57:01.335

him to be the one supervising.

00:57:01.475 --> 00:57:06.075

They wanted to avoid any form of whatever it's called when family members hire family members.

00:57:06.235 --> 00:57:09.075

They wanted to avoid that. And so they ended up saying, hey,

00:57:09.115 --> 00:57:10.695

we've been working on some training material.

00:57:10.875 --> 00:57:14.095

It sounds like John's done a lot of curriculum development and stuff with what

00:57:14.095 --> 00:57:16.135

you're telling us about the work he's done in the prisons.

00:57:16.435 --> 00:57:19.875

So why don't we bring him on to develop our next training course?

00:57:20.255 --> 00:57:23.515

So he asked me, you know, Hey, what do you think about this?

00:57:23.595 --> 00:57:26.475

And I said, yeah, I'd be open to doing some training material for them.

00:57:26.515 --> 00:57:30.675

And so I did a little interview, met with the director of operations and I don't

00:57:30.675 --> 00:57:32.515

remember who I was on. I know the director of ops was there,

00:57:32.555 --> 00:57:34.455

but I want to say it doesn't matter.

00:57:34.695 --> 00:57:39.095

Several people on the interview and they decided to bring me on as a contractor

00:57:39.095 --> 00:57:41.235

at an hourly invoice rate.

00:57:41.795 --> 00:57:45.315

And so So I came on, started working for them, working on some things.

00:57:45.395 --> 00:57:47.975

It wasn't very long before they actually asked me to come to Atlanta,

00:57:48.275 --> 00:57:50.275

which was where their office was.

00:57:50.615 --> 00:57:54.235

And I'd only been out of prison at this point, I want to say four weeks.

00:57:54.435 --> 00:57:57.055

And that is not much time.

00:57:57.335 --> 00:58:01.135

It's very, very uncommon for them to allow you to leave the state and sometimes

00:58:01.135 --> 00:58:05.595

not even the county for at least 90, if not 180 days after you get out.

00:58:05.695 --> 00:58:07.735

And sometimes they just say, no, they won't allow you to do it until you're

00:58:07.735 --> 00:58:09.775

off of supervision altogether. together.

00:58:09.795 --> 00:58:13.595

In this case, for reasons, again, unknown to me, they did require a letter from

00:58:13.595 --> 00:58:17.575

the employer, but they did allow me to go to Atlanta within a month of getting out of prison.

00:58:17.855 --> 00:58:21.315

And while I was there, the director of ops called me into his office and said,

00:58:21.475 --> 00:58:25.455

I see what you're capable of. You're doing great work. What am I going to have to do to keep you?

00:58:26.170 --> 00:58:31.730

And we talked about some strategy, we talked about some things and so forth.

00:58:31.950 --> 00:58:36.230

And to kind of summarize that whole scenario, two months into my three-month

00:58:36.230 --> 00:58:40.730

contract, I was presented with an official job offer to take responsibility

00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:43.150

for their entire training department there at the company.

00:58:43.290 --> 00:58:47.810

I served in that role for two and a half years before being asked to take the

00:58:47.810 --> 00:58:49.950

director of revenue role for the organization.

00:58:50.330 --> 00:58:54.370

And currently, I'm still functioning in that director of revenue role while

00:58:54.370 --> 00:58:57.870

also working to start my own business, doing something completely different.

00:58:58.310 --> 00:59:01.550

And so that's kind of the work side of it.

00:59:01.670 --> 00:59:06.470

Meanwhile, I had probably 10 years before I got out.

00:59:06.530 --> 00:59:10.910

So a couple of years into my sentence, I had begun listening to CDs from a church

00:59:10.910 --> 00:59:16.190

in the Phoenix area that I felt aligned with a lot of the values that I felt,

00:59:16.310 --> 00:59:19.330

I guess, matched with mine and I thought

00:59:19.330 --> 00:59:22.570

hopefully matched with the bibles and so i went there as

00:59:22.570 --> 00:59:25.370

uh as you know to kind of get to know the place i went i visited

00:59:25.370 --> 00:59:28.170

a lot of churches but not so much to visit to go but to go

00:59:28.170 --> 00:59:31.590

worship with people that i had met and had grown close to and

00:59:31.590 --> 00:59:36.170

then had the opportunity to join with palmcroft church in the phoenix area where

00:59:36.170 --> 00:59:40.610

i served for almost three years within a matter of months of getting out i was

00:59:40.610 --> 00:59:44.750

asked to start to help lead the college and career ministry so the 18 to 25

00:59:44.750 --> 00:59:50.110

year old age group and And was privileged to be able to serve that group of students for,

00:59:50.270 --> 00:59:53.830

like I said, almost three years before we moved to South Carolina.

00:59:54.370 --> 00:59:58.150

Yeah. Wow, wow, wow, wow. So powerful.

00:59:58.770 --> 01:00:03.350

When you look back on it all from kind of where you sit today.

01:00:04.709 --> 01:00:10.869

Do you feel like knowing what you know now, do you feel like you would have

01:00:10.869 --> 01:00:16.329

changed it when you have rewritten the story to not have gone to prison?

01:00:16.409 --> 01:00:19.969

Do you think you would be the man that you are today, be where you are today,

01:00:20.109 --> 01:00:22.689

if you had not gone through that?

01:00:23.009 --> 01:00:26.289

It's an interesting question, right? I've heard people say, you know,

01:00:26.289 --> 01:00:29.029

I have no regrets because if I hadn't gone through what I've gone through,

01:00:29.189 --> 01:00:30.549

then I wouldn't be the person I am today.

01:00:30.949 --> 01:00:35.429

And I understand the sentiments behind them. I don't personally carry that view.

01:00:35.629 --> 01:00:40.509

I think that it's absolutely horrendous that with the upbringing I had,

01:00:40.689 --> 01:00:46.209

the wisdom God gave me inherently, as well as just kind of the skill set and

01:00:46.209 --> 01:00:53.609

other things that I placed myself in a position to need prison for 12 years

01:00:53.609 --> 01:00:54.909

to knock some sense into me.

01:00:54.909 --> 01:00:59.089

And I think that God gave me all the tools that I needed to be in the place

01:00:59.089 --> 01:01:01.009

I'm in now without going through that.

01:01:01.189 --> 01:01:05.069

But because I was too stubborn and too egotistical, he said,

01:01:05.129 --> 01:01:08.269

okay, I'll do what I got to do. I'm going to make sure that you operate in your purpose.

01:01:08.409 --> 01:01:11.209

And if you're not going to get on board, I will get you on board.

01:01:11.329 --> 01:01:15.769

And so I have a hard time saying I don't have any regrets because my actions

01:01:15.769 --> 01:01:17.289

hurt so many people, Kevin.

01:01:17.589 --> 01:01:21.629

Not only did my best friend die, but his family, of course, was devastated.

01:01:22.049 --> 01:01:25.869

All of the members of the business were harmed. But, you know,

01:01:25.869 --> 01:01:30.389

I mentioned the 500 students and there are some that I've had the opportunity to reconnect with.

01:01:30.489 --> 01:01:34.989

And some of those students, you know, are very understanding, very forgiving.

01:01:35.229 --> 01:01:38.469

But there are young men and young ladies out there right now who are in their

01:01:38.469 --> 01:01:42.849

early 20s, who I was their martial arts instructor or I was their soccer coach

01:01:42.849 --> 01:01:44.109

because I did both for the company.

01:01:44.349 --> 01:01:48.009

And their entire life has been jaded by.

01:01:48.532 --> 01:01:53.312

By somebody they trusted, somebody they looked up to, somebody that they thought

01:01:53.312 --> 01:01:56.412

was a good guy making the decision I made.

01:01:57.032 --> 01:02:05.212

And I can't say that my growth journey is worth what I've put those individuals through.

01:02:05.392 --> 01:02:12.792

And so I really desperately wish that I could have acknowledged these principles,

01:02:13.292 --> 01:02:16.932

these things that I was taught, these things that if nothing else,

01:02:16.932 --> 01:02:21.312

I mean, there's so many things that I just somehow knew, and I can't explain how.

01:02:21.452 --> 01:02:26.992

Surely I could have somehow known these things and recognize these truths without

01:02:26.992 --> 01:02:31.312

needing to cause such devastation by my choices.

01:02:31.712 --> 01:02:35.032

And so, yes, I would absolutely rewrite the story.

01:02:35.252 --> 01:02:40.512

I'm thankful for how it's been redeemed. I say often that God has the uncanny

01:02:40.512 --> 01:02:43.352

ability to take our stupidity and turn it into something great.

01:02:43.352 --> 01:02:48.312

And I am deeply thankful that my stupidity has been turned into a redemption

01:02:48.312 --> 01:02:51.152

story and I love getting to share that story.

01:02:51.292 --> 01:02:55.652

I have a whole presentation that I love to give that's a lot more streamlined

01:02:55.652 --> 01:02:59.172

than this conversation because it usually needs to be given in about 30 minutes

01:02:59.172 --> 01:03:03.452

and I love being able to encourage people and to be able to share it,

01:03:03.992 --> 01:03:09.632

but I sure tell you what, I really wish that I could have experienced the growth

01:03:09.972 --> 01:03:15.392

that God's grace gave without causing the devastation that led me there. Yeah.

01:03:15.492 --> 01:03:20.552

I just want to acknowledge the fact that that was the most heartfelt.

01:03:21.750 --> 01:03:27.050

Most honest answer to that question that I could have ever expected you to answer it with.

01:03:27.710 --> 01:03:33.750

And I feel as though that speaks so highly of just the person who you are.

01:03:34.370 --> 01:03:36.330

Thanks, Kevin. Yeah, absolutely.

01:03:37.170 --> 01:03:43.270

So would you mind sharing kind of what your ideas, your hopes,

01:03:43.390 --> 01:03:47.550

your dreams, what you're working on today and for the future? Yeah.

01:03:47.630 --> 01:03:53.510

So part of my responsibilities as the training manager were to empower the leaders of the organization.

01:03:53.750 --> 01:03:57.910

And I realized in the midst of working on some materials for them that I just

01:03:57.910 --> 01:04:03.210

have an incredible passion for empowering leaders and providing tools specifically

01:04:03.210 --> 01:04:05.430

to what I call the forgotten leaders,

01:04:05.690 --> 01:04:08.770

which tend to be those frontline leaders, the middle managers,

01:04:08.930 --> 01:04:14.010

the people that have a ton of responsibility, but no real actual education on how to deal with it.

01:04:14.010 --> 01:04:18.310

And who are usually the ones either making people's lives miserable or making

01:04:18.310 --> 01:04:20.110

a place an enjoyable place to work.

01:04:20.350 --> 01:04:23.470

And so I've started a company called SML Consultive.

01:04:23.730 --> 01:04:28.270

SML stands for servant-minded leadership, where we seek to empower those frontline

01:04:28.270 --> 01:04:33.450

leaders to effectively engage with their teams and hopefully improve the employee

01:04:33.450 --> 01:04:37.830

retention and engagement of organizations while also improving customer satisfaction.

01:04:38.350 --> 01:04:43.190

I'm really passionate about that. I got a YouTube channel that I put little videos out about.

01:04:43.370 --> 01:04:46.390

And I've just had a blast trying to get this started.

01:04:46.410 --> 01:04:52.150

Still in the infant stages, still actively looking for clients that I can serve.

01:04:52.270 --> 01:04:55.310

I know there's a need. I know that I have some value to offer.

01:04:55.490 --> 01:05:00.130

But of course, branding and getting oneself out there is always a journey.

01:05:00.250 --> 01:05:04.290

So that's something that I'm working on really diligently right now.

01:05:04.310 --> 01:05:08.590

And in my spare hours, I'm still working full-time as the Director of Revenue.

01:05:08.590 --> 01:05:13.290

And so I'm trying to be a person of integrity with that while giving them the

01:05:13.290 --> 01:05:18.590

full time that they are paying me for, while also giving my business its due

01:05:18.590 --> 01:05:20.730

needs because a business doesn't start itself.

01:05:21.462 --> 01:05:24.842

And so working very, very diligently on that, I'm now married.

01:05:24.942 --> 01:05:28.942

And so I have the privilege of being married to a wonderful woman who is just

01:05:28.942 --> 01:05:33.742

incredibly talented and beautiful and brings so much life to our home.

01:05:33.862 --> 01:05:38.942

And so wanting to make sure that I'm faithful to serve her and make sure that

01:05:38.942 --> 01:05:43.622

I'm upholding all of the responsibilities that come with that life commitment to marriage.

01:05:43.802 --> 01:05:47.122

And we just moved a couple of months ago. So we're currently in the process

01:05:47.122 --> 01:05:51.402

of finding a new place to serve in a local church setting.

01:05:51.542 --> 01:05:56.142

And we're working diligently to make sure that we're not church shopping from

01:05:56.142 --> 01:06:00.662

the perspective of what can we get, but rather visit places to ask,

01:06:00.762 --> 01:06:02.262

where is God calling us to serve?

01:06:02.502 --> 01:06:06.322

And so we're looking forward to the next opportunity that God has for us to

01:06:06.322 --> 01:06:10.542

hopefully participate in what he's doing locally here in the Greer,

01:06:10.542 --> 01:06:12.142

Greenville, South Carolina area.

01:06:12.142 --> 01:06:15.722

And as a part of that, I was actually just thinking the other day,

01:06:15.762 --> 01:06:18.782

I posted on some Facebook groups because I realized when I was in Phoenix,

01:06:18.922 --> 01:06:22.442

I got to share my testimony with several churches and several groups.

01:06:22.542 --> 01:06:24.142

And I said, I got a whole presentation.

01:06:24.382 --> 01:06:28.142

So I'm looking to see if there's maybe an opportunity to be a blessing by sharing

01:06:28.142 --> 01:06:32.722

my story of redemption and how God has worked through my stupidity to some of

01:06:32.722 --> 01:06:34.162

the groups that are here.

01:06:34.162 --> 01:06:39.862

Here and anybody else that wants me to do so, I'd be thrilled to hopefully be

01:06:39.862 --> 01:06:44.062

a blessing and share what God can do no matter how badly we foul it up.

01:06:44.402 --> 01:06:48.022

Yeah. Well, I hope and pray that.

01:06:48.667 --> 01:06:54.907

This podcast can do some degree in helping you to share your story, to share your message.

01:06:55.027 --> 01:06:58.827

I'm going to be sure for anybody who's interested in connecting with you,

01:06:58.867 --> 01:07:02.787

I'm going to be sure that all of your links, information are all inside of today's

01:07:02.787 --> 01:07:04.307

show notes for easy access.

01:07:04.927 --> 01:07:08.727

Man, you've got a powerful story. You're a powerful guy.

01:07:09.427 --> 01:07:14.807

I'm so glad, grateful that things are going good.

01:07:14.807 --> 01:07:17.647

Good that yeah that you took a bad

01:07:17.647 --> 01:07:21.027

situation you flipped it on its head and

01:07:21.027 --> 01:07:24.227

you've made good come out of it and i think

01:07:24.227 --> 01:07:29.127

that's one of the most powerful things that any of us can do and so thank you

01:07:29.127 --> 01:07:33.707

so much for sharing it with with us today oh man it's been an absolute pleasure

01:07:33.707 --> 01:07:39.387

kevin i love your heart i love your energy and uh it's been just a great honor

01:07:39.387 --> 01:07:41.927

to spend this last few few minutes with you. Yeah.

01:07:42.047 --> 01:07:49.267

Thank you. Thank you. And for you, my friend, my hope as always is that you

01:07:49.267 --> 01:07:51.187

didn't just enjoy today's episode,

01:07:51.347 --> 01:07:56.727

but that it impacts your life somehow, some way, something that John said today,

01:07:56.847 --> 01:08:02.627

maybe it resonates with you, or maybe you think of a friend who you really think

01:08:02.627 --> 01:08:04.427

could use to hear this message today.

01:08:04.687 --> 01:08:11.047

It's a story of redemption, a story of hope, a story of our challenges turned

01:08:11.047 --> 01:08:16.187

into triumphs. It's the craziness of life. It's a powerful conversation.

01:08:16.807 --> 01:08:20.367

And I am so grateful that you were here to hear it today.

01:08:20.727 --> 01:08:25.507

My name is Kevin Lowe. This is Grit, Grace and Inspiration. Get out there and enjoy.

01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:45.9