Show Notes
Can a single moment truly redefine your entire life? Imagine everything changing in the blink of an eye—because for Jon Antonucci, it did. This episode uncovers a gripping journey of downfall, resilience, and profound transformation.
What You'll Gain:
Prepare to explore the power of redemption and the incredible strength of the human spirit to overcome adversity. You'll be inspired by Jon's story of transformation from incarceration to a life of purpose and impact.
Episode Synopsis:
In today's episode, you're going to dive into the life of Jon Antonucci, who faced the darkest moment of his life when a split-second decision led to a 14-year prison sentence. But instead of surrendering to despair, Jon chose to see his incarceration as a pivotal moment to reshape his destiny.
Through heartfelt reflections and a candid recount of his experiences, this episode is a testament to the transformative power of hope and the relentless pursuit of redemption.
Life-changing Takeaways:
- Every Setback is a Setup for a Comeback: Discover how Jon turned a life sentence into a life lesson.
- The Power of Choice: Understanding that our responses to life’s challenges define our path.
- Transformation Through Adversity: Gain insights into how facing our darkest moments can lead to profound personal growth and transformation.
- The Role of Faith in Rehabilitation: Exploring how spirituality can guide one through the recovery and healing process.
- Mentorship Behind Bars: Jon discusses how mentoring other inmates provided purpose and helped solidify his own journey towards redemption.
Press PLAY on this gripping episode to witness a story of profound transformation, even while face-to-face with adversity. This story is truly empowering!
Mentioned Links & Resources:
- Send Prayer Requests to 877-749-8178 or to Podcast@LoweDownMedia.com
- MyPillow: Use Promo Code KEVIN for the $25 Extravaganza! (ALL of the following each only $25: 2-pack multi use MyPillow’s, MyPillow sandals, 6-pack towels sets, 4-pack dish towels, Giza Premium MyPillows with all new Giza fabric)
- Download your free RISE & THRIVE: Personal Development Tracker
- Visit Jon's Company Website: www.ServantMindedLeadership.com
- Checkout Jon's Personal Website: www.JonAntonucci.com
- Email: This is Jon's email if wishing to get in contact: me@jonantonucci.com
- Visit Jon's YOUTUBE Channel
- Connect with Jon on: LinkedIn
- Follow Jon on Facebook: @ServantMindedLeadership
- Follow Jon on Instagram: @ServantMindedLeadership
Today’s Awesome Guest
Jon Antonucci grew up with entrepreneurial zeal in Fort Collins, Colorado, and moved to Arizona during his teenage years. His life took a dramatic turn when a decision led him to a 14-year prison sentence. During his incarceration, Jon used his time to engage in self-improvement and education, ultimately using his experiences to aid in his remarkable comeback. His story is a powerful testament to the human spirit's capacity to overcome adversity and embrace change for a better future.
Hey, it's Kevin!
I hope you enjoyed today's episode! If there is ever anything I can do for you please don't hesitate to reach out. Below, you will find ALL the places and ALL the ways to connect!
- Start Receiving my Weekly Midweek Pick-Me-Up! Every Wednesday get a boost of positivity in your email's inbox
- I would LOVE to hear from you! Send me a Voice Message
- Sign-Up to Receive My LinkedIn Newsletter
- Plus Hangout with Me on LinkedIn
- Let's Schedule a Virtual Coffee Date
- Come Checkout the Website
Stay Awesome! Live Inspired!
© 2024 Grit, Grace, & Inspiration
Show Transcript
It's no doubt that a single moment in time can completely change the rest of your life.
00:00:07.197 --> 00:00:13.857
Today, it's a story of a moment, a decision, and it completely changed the life for today's guest.
00:00:14.177 --> 00:00:19.297
I want you to imagine, imagine back when you were a teenager with nothing but
00:00:19.297 --> 00:00:24.017
the hopes for the future, enjoying life, excited about tomorrow.
00:00:24.017 --> 00:00:30.557
And then, of course, that moment happens, a decision, a single moment in time,
00:00:30.657 --> 00:00:32.217
and everything changes.
00:00:32.697 --> 00:00:37.897
Our guest today, John Antonucci, he knows this story all too well.
00:00:38.137 --> 00:00:40.617
That moment was devastating.
00:00:41.437 --> 00:00:45.817
That moment would change the lives of so very many, including his own.
00:00:46.197 --> 00:00:53.237
Faced with a 14-year prison sentence, John Antonucci could have viewed his life as done.
00:00:53.237 --> 00:00:59.657
But instead, as the story goes, he would use this as a transformation because,
00:00:59.737 --> 00:01:05.117
well, he realized every setback is a setup for an amazing comeback.
00:01:05.597 --> 00:01:08.577
Today is one heck of a comeback story.
00:01:09.417 --> 00:01:14.557
Now, here's how today's episode, though, is going to mean something more to you.
00:01:14.757 --> 00:01:20.697
Is that while you listen, I want you to keep in mind that it's not what happens
00:01:20.697 --> 00:01:21.977
in this life that matters.
00:01:22.657 --> 00:01:25.937
No, it's how we react to it that defines us.
00:01:26.377 --> 00:01:32.417
Keep that in mind as you listen to his story and understand how that moment,
00:01:32.457 --> 00:01:34.617
that doesn't make him who he is.
00:01:34.997 --> 00:01:38.937
Instead, it's all the things that he's done since then. My friend,
00:01:38.977 --> 00:01:41.337
I welcome you to episode 284.
00:01:42.511 --> 00:01:46.471
What's up, my friend, and welcome to Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.
00:01:46.671 --> 00:01:51.551
I am your host, Kevin Lowe. 20 years ago, I awoke from a life-saving surgery
00:01:51.551 --> 00:01:54.331
only to find that I was left completely blind.
00:01:54.571 --> 00:01:59.671
And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.
00:01:59.991 --> 00:02:03.771
And here on this podcast, I want to share those insights with you.
00:02:03.931 --> 00:02:07.491
Because friend, if you are still searching for your purpose,
00:02:07.711 --> 00:02:13.191
still trying to understand why, or still left searching for that next right
00:02:13.191 --> 00:02:17.731
path to take, we'll consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from
00:02:17.731 --> 00:02:19.551
where you are to where you want to be.
00:02:21.151 --> 00:02:26.871
Do you and your family watch much TV? If so, then you have probably seen the
00:02:26.871 --> 00:02:28.471
commercials for MyPillow.
00:02:28.591 --> 00:02:33.491
Well, did you know that here on the podcast, we are sponsored by MyPillow?
00:02:33.631 --> 00:02:35.111
And what does that mean for you?
00:02:35.271 --> 00:02:40.051
Well, that means you get to use the promo code Kevin And you can get the best
00:02:40.051 --> 00:02:44.771
available price on any of their more than 250 products.
00:02:45.051 --> 00:02:47.791
We're talking up to 80% off.
00:02:48.271 --> 00:02:52.811
And right now they have their $25 extravaganza.
00:02:52.851 --> 00:02:57.891
You can get some of their best products for literally only 25 bucks.
00:02:58.131 --> 00:03:02.891
You can't beat it. Be sure to check out today's show notes where I will leave
00:03:02.891 --> 00:03:08.811
a list of the products that you can get for just 25 bucks. and we'll leave a
00:03:08.811 --> 00:03:10.611
link that makes it easy for you.
00:03:10.771 --> 00:03:14.851
Remember, just use promo code Kevin when shopping at MyPillow.
00:03:15.595 --> 00:03:18.015
Last week on the podcast, I mentioned
00:03:18.015 --> 00:03:23.335
that I wanted to start doing prayer requests for you, my listeners,
00:03:23.535 --> 00:03:29.975
and today we are going right along with that, and I have a prayer request from
00:03:29.975 --> 00:03:34.055
Debbie, and she asked prayer for her son, Shannon.
00:03:34.355 --> 00:03:41.575
Shannon recently underwent massive heart surgery, and she just asked if we could
00:03:41.575 --> 00:03:44.675
be praying for Shannon for complete and total healing,
00:03:44.815 --> 00:03:51.115
that he will get strong and well and can get back to living the life that he was.
00:03:51.375 --> 00:03:55.975
His name is Shannon, and it would be amazing if you could say a prayer for him today.
00:03:56.335 --> 00:04:00.595
And please remember, if you would like to have your prayer request featured
00:04:00.595 --> 00:04:03.375
here on the podcast, I've made it super simple.
00:04:03.375 --> 00:04:12.375
All you have to do is send your prayer request via text to 877-749-8178.
00:04:12.615 --> 00:04:18.415
Again, that phone number is 877-749-8178.
00:04:18.815 --> 00:04:23.415
And remember, don't call that phone number. Just send a text message.
00:04:23.635 --> 00:04:29.035
That is what it is set up for. So send a text message to that phone number with your prayer request.
00:04:29.295 --> 00:04:33.655
And I would love to feature it here on the podcast. With that,
00:04:33.655 --> 00:04:36.095
my friend, it's back to the episode.
00:04:36.355 --> 00:04:39.335
Here is my interview with John Antonucci.
00:04:42.035 --> 00:04:47.655
I grew up in the foothills of Colorado in a town called Fort Collins.
00:04:48.525 --> 00:04:56.265
And was the probably the most entrepreneurial young man that you have ever encountered.
00:04:56.405 --> 00:04:59.425
I don't know if you've even heard more, but at seven years old,
00:04:59.465 --> 00:05:00.865
I started my own lawn business.
00:05:00.965 --> 00:05:06.245
By the time I was 12, I was running that and delivering newspapers and selling
00:05:06.245 --> 00:05:10.405
newspaper subscriptions and going up to the local convenience store.
00:05:10.485 --> 00:05:14.545
I think they call it convenience plus back then. Anyways, and like making the
00:05:14.545 --> 00:05:18.625
coffee and stocking the shelves and helping a little local produce stand selling
00:05:18.625 --> 00:05:22.065
old town and really just work and work and work.
00:05:22.305 --> 00:05:27.265
And because I was homeschooled my entire life, that gave me the opportunity
00:05:27.265 --> 00:05:30.565
to get the schoolwork out of the way and get back to work.
00:05:30.745 --> 00:05:37.525
So very ambitious young man, somebody that my parents were often known as John's
00:05:37.525 --> 00:05:38.705
parents in the neighborhood.
00:05:39.165 --> 00:05:43.925
And yeah, just very, very much a go-getter. And then at about 12,
00:05:44.245 --> 00:05:46.245
I got involved with martial arts.
00:05:46.345 --> 00:05:50.605
And that was something that I just really took to really, really quickly.
00:05:50.925 --> 00:05:54.345
And so from that point on, that was kind of the passion.
00:05:54.445 --> 00:05:59.785
I still worked and did all the other jobs, but my dream was to become an instructor.
00:06:00.025 --> 00:06:05.225
And I was able to officially realize that dream when I was 17 years old.
00:06:05.285 --> 00:06:07.205
We'd moved to Arizona by that time.
00:06:07.465 --> 00:06:10.865
It was an unfortunate situation, but one of the instructors that had been a
00:06:10.865 --> 00:06:14.285
longtime instructor with the company that I was a part of, passed away.
00:06:14.565 --> 00:06:18.045
And they were in a bind to try to fill all of the classes.
00:06:18.225 --> 00:06:23.865
And at that point, a 17-year-old ambitious young man was all that was really required.
00:06:24.125 --> 00:06:30.105
I had the rank, I had the ambition, and they had the needs. So we complimented each other in that.
00:06:30.325 --> 00:06:35.845
And by the time I was 19, I was instructing over 500 students across the Phoenix
00:06:35.845 --> 00:06:38.885
Metro Valley and really, Really, really just continuing on.
00:06:38.945 --> 00:06:43.165
So that's kind of an overview of what I was doing.
00:06:43.545 --> 00:06:48.225
Yeah, amazing. Now, what do you think it was about martial arts in particular
00:06:48.225 --> 00:06:50.705
that really attracted you to it?
00:06:51.127 --> 00:06:55.187
You know, I think it's hard to say. It's hard to say. Being homeschooled,
00:06:55.187 --> 00:06:59.047
as much as that gave me an incredible amount of opportunity.
00:06:59.527 --> 00:07:03.227
This was back in the days before homeschooling was cool, certainly pre-COVID.
00:07:03.327 --> 00:07:09.087
Yeah. And so I think there was a lot of kids that are near me that didn't know how to take that.
00:07:09.167 --> 00:07:12.887
So probably a little bit to try to overcome some bullying and things.
00:07:13.027 --> 00:07:18.387
But but I think honestly, if I look back on it now, I kind of became a bully there for a while.
00:07:18.467 --> 00:07:22.347
And so I think a lot of it was just a desire to be powerful,
00:07:22.567 --> 00:07:24.867
a desire to command control and respect.
00:07:26.027 --> 00:07:29.307
What do you mean when you say that you kind of became a bully?
00:07:29.447 --> 00:07:33.587
Why? Why would you say that? Well, you know, hindsight being 2020,
00:07:33.887 --> 00:07:37.447
which it always is there, there's just, you can look back on it and say,
00:07:37.527 --> 00:07:40.207
you know, there wasn't a real heart for self-defense.
00:07:40.387 --> 00:07:42.227
There was more a heart for dominance.
00:07:42.747 --> 00:07:46.687
And especially when I look back on the way that I treated my siblings,
00:07:46.827 --> 00:07:52.907
I got, I have a lot of remorse over some of the ways that I treated my siblings. I'm the oldest of five.
00:07:53.187 --> 00:07:57.647
And so I just look back and I'm so thankful for the wonderful relationship that
00:07:57.647 --> 00:08:01.707
I have now with each of them. but boy, I sure could have treated them better
00:08:01.707 --> 00:08:04.067
growing up. Yeah, yeah, understandable.
00:08:04.928 --> 00:08:09.728
Now, real quick, kind of while we're still in this same kind of a period of
00:08:09.728 --> 00:08:14.328
your life, the move that you guys did, how old were you when you guys moved
00:08:14.328 --> 00:08:16.868
and how was the move on you and life?
00:08:17.288 --> 00:08:20.848
So I was 15 when we moved.
00:08:21.208 --> 00:08:24.868
And I think for me, it was a huge adjustment. So we moved out here.
00:08:24.908 --> 00:08:28.508
My father has been in the ministry since I was born.
00:08:28.868 --> 00:08:33.268
And he moved here to help with a church that was, or I shouldn't say here.
00:08:33.348 --> 00:08:37.968
I'm not in Arizona anymore. more. But he moved to Arizona to help with the church there.
00:08:38.128 --> 00:08:42.028
And so I think from one perspective, it was something new. It was something exciting.
00:08:42.288 --> 00:08:46.728
Being the oldest, I was kind of the fearless one of the group,
00:08:46.788 --> 00:08:49.128
but it definitely changed a lot as well.
00:08:49.548 --> 00:08:54.048
All of the little business ventures I had going obviously kind of evaporated.
00:08:54.088 --> 00:08:57.588
And I don't know how much you know about Arizona, but while Colorado was lush
00:08:57.588 --> 00:09:02.468
with trees and grass and things to mow and rake and shovel, Arizona, not so much.
00:09:04.228 --> 00:09:08.908
So about the most you're going to get with landscaping as a 15-year-old kid
00:09:08.908 --> 00:09:11.588
in Arizona is pulling weeds and raking rocks.
00:09:11.888 --> 00:09:15.388
And so that kind of put the kibosh on that.
00:09:15.588 --> 00:09:21.388
But I was able to get a job. I started working for Safeway and did pretty well there once I turned 16.
00:09:21.928 --> 00:09:27.748
Martial arts also took a big change because in Colorado, going back to kind of that bully idea.
00:09:28.008 --> 00:09:31.128
I was just, I was undisputedly kind of the top of the class,
00:09:31.168 --> 00:09:35.928
even before I was officially ranked top or the oldest, it was just, it took to it naturally.
00:09:36.168 --> 00:09:40.328
And so while that was great, it didn't necessarily foster a spirit of growth.
00:09:40.568 --> 00:09:45.268
Well, I came to Phoenix and Phoenix being a much larger area where the company
00:09:45.268 --> 00:09:47.248
that I was a part of was actually founded.
00:09:47.328 --> 00:09:49.748
There were people that were just a lot better.
00:09:49.848 --> 00:09:53.948
And so I went from kind of being the top dog to being a nobody in a matter of moments.
00:09:54.068 --> 00:09:57.428
And I think that was really, really beneficial for part of my growth journey.
00:09:57.768 --> 00:09:59.248
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:10:00.292 --> 00:10:05.172
Now, when you were talking about kind of at the height of this martial arts,
00:10:05.272 --> 00:10:09.492
when you were, I think you said 19 and you were teaching martial arts,
00:10:09.492 --> 00:10:12.252
just from my own knowledge of your story,
00:10:12.412 --> 00:10:16.932
something else kind of happened at 19 that I feel like is a pivotal moment in your story.
00:10:17.072 --> 00:10:20.012
Would you unpack that for us? Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:20.372 --> 00:10:29.532
The age of 19 is huge because it was both the apex of who I was as well as the
00:10:29.532 --> 00:10:32.392
rock bottom that resulted in who I am.
00:10:32.492 --> 00:10:38.712
The successes that I had found growing up, and it really was, it was the Midas touch.
00:10:38.852 --> 00:10:43.932
Everything I did turned to gold and it really was enough to really lend to an
00:10:43.932 --> 00:10:46.292
already overinflated ego. go.
00:10:46.712 --> 00:10:52.912
And so when I was probably 18, I was paired up with some people that I was working
00:10:52.912 --> 00:10:55.792
with and all societally good people.
00:10:55.832 --> 00:11:00.452
We were all kind of doing the right thing, except there was one of us who had
00:11:00.452 --> 00:11:02.252
found some ways to kind of cook
00:11:02.252 --> 00:11:06.872
the books a little bit when it came to our instructing of martial arts.
00:11:07.012 --> 00:11:09.632
And so that kind of led me down a rabbit hole.
00:11:09.832 --> 00:11:12.432
I'm not a creative person by any any stretch of the imagination,
00:11:12.772 --> 00:11:14.672
but I am certainly an innovative person.
00:11:14.972 --> 00:11:18.632
And if you show me that something is possible, I'm going to show you how we
00:11:18.632 --> 00:11:20.052
can make that possibility better.
00:11:20.565 --> 00:11:23.305
And, uh, that's, you know, that's kind of what I did.
00:11:23.405 --> 00:11:28.025
He, he showed me that there was a possibility of, of skimming off the top of the books.
00:11:28.125 --> 00:11:31.005
And I said, well, if you can do it that way, then you can also do it this other,
00:11:31.085 --> 00:11:33.125
and this other, and this other, and this other, and this other way.
00:11:33.585 --> 00:11:36.885
Eventually, of course, when you get greedy and you do things that are the lack
00:11:36.885 --> 00:11:41.505
integrity, I think the Bible says that things that are done in secret are shouted from the housetops.
00:11:41.685 --> 00:11:46.365
And so that's, that kind of what happened. I was called on the carpet for it.
00:11:46.445 --> 00:11:50.545
I made up a lie about what my intentions were, that I was trying to find all
00:11:50.545 --> 00:11:52.265
of the problems with the system.
00:11:52.545 --> 00:11:56.845
And they bought that just for about as much truth as it contained.
00:11:57.585 --> 00:12:00.965
And I was, of course, fired.
00:12:01.205 --> 00:12:05.585
And so after being fired, of course, the reason that it was caught,
00:12:05.825 --> 00:12:07.105
all the books were being audited.
00:12:07.285 --> 00:12:12.085
And there was kind of a series of events that happened. But to kind of just distill it all down.
00:12:12.385 --> 00:12:16.785
I was fired. My best friend who originally kind of showed me that this was possible
00:12:16.785 --> 00:12:17.845
was under investigation.
00:12:18.565 --> 00:12:24.645
And we were both what we lacked in an integrity we made up for in creativity, I guess.
00:12:24.905 --> 00:12:30.365
And so one day as we were talking, we were talking about me starting up my own venture.
00:12:30.525 --> 00:12:32.725
And he was kind of scared a little
00:12:32.725 --> 00:12:37.285
bit because remember, I was 17 when I originally signed my contract.
00:12:37.565 --> 00:12:43.085
So my non-compete clause, I didn't feel was enforceable, but he was significantly older than me.
00:12:43.165 --> 00:12:46.685
And so his contract had been signed at an elder age.
00:12:46.965 --> 00:12:50.025
And so he was trying to figure out, you know, what are we going to do about
00:12:50.025 --> 00:12:52.945
that? Because, you know, eventually I know I'm getting fired too, basically.
00:12:53.305 --> 00:12:56.805
And so he made this comment. It was done in passing. I didn't really take it
00:12:56.805 --> 00:12:59.225
seriously, but he was like, you know, we should just burn the whole place down.
00:12:59.385 --> 00:13:03.125
And I was like, ah, you're stupid. Shut up. And within moments of that,
00:13:03.225 --> 00:13:05.385
I mean, it wasn't like it was even talked about really.
00:13:05.445 --> 00:13:09.465
It was just kind of in passing that the conversation ended and I didn't give it much thought.
00:13:09.745 --> 00:13:14.945
And it wasn't until probably a month or two later that it came up again with
00:13:14.945 --> 00:13:19.965
two mutual colleagues who said that they had overheard the same friend talking
00:13:19.965 --> 00:13:23.465
about the same idea, but this time in front of students.
00:13:24.045 --> 00:13:27.725
And they were pretty concerned about, you know, not only where this idea was
00:13:27.725 --> 00:13:31.345
going, but also the fact that it had been mentioned in front of other people.
00:13:31.345 --> 00:13:36.725
And that was kind of when it got serious because I was like still very insecure
00:13:36.725 --> 00:13:40.445
with myself, still lacking any integrity and courage in myself.
00:13:41.025 --> 00:13:43.625
And with some weird, weirdly placed
00:13:43.625 --> 00:13:47.745
sense of importance, I felt the best thing to do was to take charge.
00:13:47.885 --> 00:13:51.905
And all right, I'm going to talk to Josh about this. And we went toward that direction.
00:13:51.945 --> 00:13:53.085
But instead of, you know, hey,
00:13:53.145 --> 00:13:55.945
we should never have talked about this or this. This is a terrible idea.
00:13:56.085 --> 00:14:00.665
I more went at it from the perspective of you can't say things like that in front of students.
00:14:01.345 --> 00:14:06.865
Yes. And that's that kind of snowballed the the conversation into,
00:14:06.965 --> 00:14:08.945
you know, what were you even talking about?
00:14:09.125 --> 00:14:11.365
And eventually there was a plan that was put into place.
00:14:11.869 --> 00:14:16.969
And to make a very long story very short, when I was 19, me and three of my
00:14:16.969 --> 00:14:21.069
friends thought that it would be a bright idea to go light that building on
00:14:21.069 --> 00:14:23.109
fire, the office building where we worked.
00:14:23.269 --> 00:14:27.949
And so on, I believe it was June 13th of 2009,
00:14:28.489 --> 00:14:35.169
we all donned black attire and scaled an awning that allowed us to break a window
00:14:35.169 --> 00:14:38.749
in the second story offices of that office building.
00:14:39.329 --> 00:14:44.509
And we had a whole plan. The whole plan collapsed immediately after going in.
00:14:44.549 --> 00:14:46.049
I don't think any of us wanted to be there.
00:14:46.129 --> 00:14:49.509
I think we were all freaked out. I think if any one of us had said,
00:14:49.589 --> 00:14:55.909
I'm not doing this, the rest would have said, and we all would have left. But none of us did.
00:14:56.109 --> 00:14:59.329
I was too much of a coward to make such a statement.
00:14:59.629 --> 00:15:06.109
And so we broke the window. We entered into the office that we were supposed to disperse from.
00:15:06.369 --> 00:15:10.949
None of us ever left that that office. Most of us just left our gasoline that
00:15:10.949 --> 00:15:12.569
we had brought with us in that office.
00:15:12.789 --> 00:15:16.889
I was the first one out the window with one of the others close behind.
00:15:17.129 --> 00:15:22.769
And I was literally just running away as fast as I could when I saw the fireball
00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:25.109
erupt into the sky behind me.
00:15:25.329 --> 00:15:30.769
And the alarm went off. And my best friend, an older brother,
00:15:30.989 --> 00:15:34.769
he had apparently lit the match while he was still standing in that room.
00:15:34.909 --> 00:15:40.029
And I didn't see him again until after I pulled my truck around trying to look for him.
00:15:40.089 --> 00:15:44.609
And he was at that point kind of rolling around up on the awning with flames
00:15:44.609 --> 00:15:45.929
coming off of his clothing.
00:15:46.149 --> 00:15:49.829
I was unable to stop my car in time. I tried to make a U-turn,
00:15:50.029 --> 00:15:53.109
but in the time that I made the U-turn, the fire truck passed me.
00:15:53.289 --> 00:15:58.169
And he had said during the quote unquote planning phase, you can call what we
00:15:58.169 --> 00:16:02.569
did planning, that if anything went wrong, all of us were supposed to get out
00:16:02.569 --> 00:16:04.429
of there and preserve our lives
00:16:04.429 --> 00:16:07.649
as we were all much younger than him and that he would take care of it.
00:16:07.869 --> 00:16:11.989
So I made yet another cowardly move and I ran away.
00:16:12.129 --> 00:16:14.449
I drove away, really, and turned
00:16:14.449 --> 00:16:18.029
my phone off so I couldn't be tracked and drove away as fast as I could.
00:16:18.069 --> 00:16:20.829
I have no idea where I went. It's all just kind of a blur.
00:16:21.069 --> 00:16:27.269
But eventually, we all met up at my house and the other three of us.
00:16:27.369 --> 00:16:31.729
We concocted a lie that It's what we felt would be an alibi for all of us.
00:16:32.709 --> 00:16:38.429
And we left it at that. And to continue to try to fast forward through the story,
00:16:38.609 --> 00:16:42.929
the police called me the next day as his wife had indicated I was the last one
00:16:42.929 --> 00:16:47.009
to be seen with him, assuming that I would be able to lie my way out of that
00:16:47.009 --> 00:16:49.889
quandary, just like I had everything else in my life.
00:16:49.969 --> 00:16:54.129
I went to the police station and answered the questions in my most convincing tone.
00:16:54.309 --> 00:16:58.049
And they believed me for the exact amount of truth that was in my statements as well.
00:16:58.681 --> 00:17:02.801
And I found myself with the handcuffs being clasped around my wrists as they
00:17:02.801 --> 00:17:07.341
clipped shut and being led away, being charged with arson of an occupied structure
00:17:07.341 --> 00:17:10.541
and what was classified in Arizona as first degree murder.
00:17:10.801 --> 00:17:14.681
Not because they thought we intentionally killed him, but because when you commit
00:17:14.681 --> 00:17:17.701
a felony and someone dies, it's considered a capital murder.
00:17:17.901 --> 00:17:19.561
So it's classified the same as first degree.
00:17:20.021 --> 00:17:23.141
Wow. So your friend did die?
00:17:23.381 --> 00:17:28.301
Yes. The next day, I assumed he was in the hospital. I had no idea where he
00:17:28.301 --> 00:17:32.141
was, but to me, I'd watched apparently one too many episodes of CSI.
00:17:32.341 --> 00:17:36.321
And I thought, well, there's this giant database, so I'll find him.
00:17:36.481 --> 00:17:40.661
And so I called the police to file a missing persons report saying that we were
00:17:40.661 --> 00:17:44.221
supposed to leave and that he had taken off to run an errand and never returned.
00:17:44.401 --> 00:17:48.981
In case anyone's wondering, no such giant database exists, but they will charge
00:17:48.981 --> 00:17:53.861
you for filing a fraudulent report when they find out that the person was not
00:17:53.861 --> 00:17:55.021
missing and you were with him later.
00:17:55.121 --> 00:17:58.721
So that's a fun fact. But yeah, I tried filing a report.
00:17:58.961 --> 00:18:01.521
They were unable to find him. I didn't know what was going on.
00:18:01.561 --> 00:18:05.701
And it wasn't until I received a call from a mutual colleague later that day
00:18:05.701 --> 00:18:09.361
where they said that they thought they had found Josh's body at the scene that
00:18:09.361 --> 00:18:11.801
I learned that he had passed. Wow.
00:18:12.741 --> 00:18:16.601
Yeah. Wow. Wow. Wow. My
00:18:16.601 --> 00:18:20.421
how a series of bad
00:18:20.421 --> 00:18:24.261
decisions can just completely snowball and
00:18:24.261 --> 00:18:27.061
completely change the course of your
00:18:27.061 --> 00:18:29.941
life yeah yeah no one saw it
00:18:29.941 --> 00:18:36.121
coming uh not especially not me but but yeah no it went from uh i think i've
00:18:36.121 --> 00:18:41.361
said i was i went from being the the golden boy to the goober i went from being
00:18:41.361 --> 00:18:46.021
the the person that was doing good things to just being an absolute loser in
00:18:46.021 --> 00:18:48.101
a matter of matter of minutes Wow.
00:18:48.261 --> 00:18:51.521
So what happens next?
00:18:51.701 --> 00:18:56.681
After you're arrested, all of this, what happens?
00:18:57.583 --> 00:19:01.123
A long and very positive journey.
00:19:01.563 --> 00:19:04.683
And when I say positive, I don't mean fun. I don't mean comfortable.
00:19:04.823 --> 00:19:05.483
I don't mean entertaining.
00:19:05.883 --> 00:19:10.743
I mean that it was good for me. The arrest woke me up a little bit,
00:19:10.783 --> 00:19:12.563
but honestly, not as much as you would think.
00:19:12.903 --> 00:19:17.963
I was still very, you could say I was still drinking my own Kool-Aid, maybe you could say.
00:19:18.143 --> 00:19:22.363
And so because of that, I maintained my lie.
00:19:22.543 --> 00:19:26.163
I wasn't there. I didn't know what they were talking about. I was not guilty
00:19:26.163 --> 00:19:27.343
of what they were charging me of.
00:19:27.583 --> 00:19:31.463
And in my mind, I wasn't, it wasn't even so much that I believed that I didn't
00:19:31.463 --> 00:19:35.383
do it. It was that I was being very technical about it in my own mind.
00:19:35.483 --> 00:19:39.263
So in order to justify everything, I was charged with arson.
00:19:39.343 --> 00:19:44.323
Well, in my mind, I never lit a fire. I never lit a match, which is technically true.
00:19:44.643 --> 00:19:47.943
They were charging me with murder. Again, I didn't kill anybody.
00:19:48.123 --> 00:19:52.763
And so that was technically true. And so I just really perpetuated this idea
00:19:52.763 --> 00:19:54.163
that, that I was innocent.
00:19:54.363 --> 00:19:59.003
And that was compounded by the fact that anyone who's ever had any interaction
00:19:59.003 --> 00:20:03.583
with the law can affirm that your lawyer will tell you do not admit guilt under any circumstances.
00:20:04.123 --> 00:20:07.423
But that doesn't mean lie. It just means shut up is really what that means.
00:20:08.763 --> 00:20:11.463
So it took me a while. It took me a while.
00:20:11.543 --> 00:20:15.023
I want to say it took me at least a month or two to even admit to my attorney
00:20:15.023 --> 00:20:17.103
that I was there and admit to
00:20:17.103 --> 00:20:21.683
my attorney that I was at least culpable of what I felt I was culpable of.
00:20:21.963 --> 00:20:26.543
And then honestly, Kevin, It took, I mean, it happened over a series of time
00:20:26.543 --> 00:20:27.963
and there were gradual incremental.
00:20:29.223 --> 00:20:34.543
Acknowledgements, but I want to say it took at least six months before I was
00:20:34.543 --> 00:20:41.163
able to just reconcile the fact that it was my actions that were a part of this.
00:20:41.363 --> 00:20:47.243
It was probably a couple of years before I recognized that my actions had a ripple effect.
00:20:47.243 --> 00:20:50.623
And it was probably close to five years,
00:20:50.763 --> 00:20:56.823
I want to say, before I recognized that the natural born leadership calling
00:20:56.823 --> 00:21:04.103
that I carried actually did indeed lay on me a greater level of culpability
00:21:04.103 --> 00:21:05.683
than even the others possessed.
00:21:06.803 --> 00:21:13.983
Wow. Now, what would be the outcome of you being arrested in all of this this
00:21:13.983 --> 00:21:19.883
time? Yeah, the outcome was not what anybody, well, not what anybody that loved me would hope for.
00:21:20.023 --> 00:21:24.423
I eventually was offered a plea bargain, which for those that are not familiar
00:21:24.423 --> 00:21:28.983
with the law, basically meant that the state of Arizona would not take me to
00:21:28.983 --> 00:21:32.103
trial where I could be facing up to 25 to life.
00:21:32.103 --> 00:21:35.583
In fact, the very first conversation that my attorney and I had,
00:21:35.743 --> 00:21:40.563
he said to me through a bulletproof glass, my name is Jeffrey Kirchler.
00:21:40.583 --> 00:21:41.783
I'm your court appointed attorney.
00:21:42.143 --> 00:21:45.903
I will be your court appointed attorney for the duration of your pretrial proceedings
00:21:45.903 --> 00:21:49.323
unless the state chooses to seek the death penalty, at which point I will no
00:21:49.323 --> 00:21:51.943
longer be your court appointed attorney and they will assign another.
00:21:52.929 --> 00:21:57.509
Wow. And so that's that was a 19 year old punch in the face right there.
00:21:57.889 --> 00:22:02.869
So I was facing really some serious time. So they offered a plea bargain that
00:22:02.869 --> 00:22:07.029
would eliminate trial and and would just kind of leave it in the hands of the judge.
00:22:07.149 --> 00:22:12.249
And that plea bargain offered a range of between seven years in prison to 21
00:22:12.249 --> 00:22:18.049
years in prison. And I think everyone that loved me and knew me were all really
00:22:18.049 --> 00:22:20.489
thinking that seven years was too long.
00:22:20.729 --> 00:22:24.029
In fact, I think one of the things that really got me in trouble was that there's
00:22:24.029 --> 00:22:26.609
a way for a judge, if they really want to, they can basically say,
00:22:26.649 --> 00:22:29.369
I'm not accepting the plea bargain and I'm just going to sentence them less.
00:22:29.529 --> 00:22:34.649
It hardly ever happens, but that sliver of hope was very large in many of us.
00:22:34.729 --> 00:22:40.289
And I think there was, especially me, I'll just speak for my own naivety and my own ego.
00:22:40.289 --> 00:22:42.949
Ego I really felt like they were going to look and they were going to say this
00:22:42.949 --> 00:22:45.689
kid really all he did was actually break a window we're not going to
00:22:45.689 --> 00:22:48.529
send him to prison for seven years because this is still early in
00:22:48.529 --> 00:22:54.189
my in my kind of acknowledgement process but I think most of my family was thinking
00:22:54.189 --> 00:22:57.269
you know seven years I mean that's that's so much time the kid's never been
00:22:57.269 --> 00:23:00.829
in trouble he's never been arrested he's not he's not out there doing drugs
00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:04.869
he wasn't gangbanging you know all the things that that at least my circles
00:23:04.869 --> 00:23:07.809
would think and so we were all really hoping for seven years.
00:23:08.029 --> 00:23:13.409
As it turns out, many of the things that we thought would be mitigating circumstances
00:23:13.409 --> 00:23:17.149
were actually ended up to be aggravating circumstances.
00:23:17.789 --> 00:23:21.909
The fact that I had never been in trouble and had the upbringing I did was used
00:23:21.909 --> 00:23:25.389
as an aggravating circumstance to show that I should have known better and that
00:23:25.389 --> 00:23:28.549
I don't have bad influences and things like that.
00:23:28.609 --> 00:23:33.369
The fact that I wasn't on drugs indicated to them that this meant I was sociopathic.
00:23:33.369 --> 00:23:35.369
They actually had me clinically tested.
00:23:35.469 --> 00:23:38.409
I was determined not to be. So they weren't allowed to officially bring that
00:23:38.409 --> 00:23:39.669
up. But that was the allegation.
00:23:40.173 --> 00:23:46.253
And so the way the sentencing went was that my family had the opportunity to
00:23:46.253 --> 00:23:49.013
share why they felt that it should be seven years.
00:23:49.193 --> 00:23:52.933
And those that were victims, which included my best friend's family,
00:23:53.053 --> 00:23:58.213
and of course, the owners and employees of the business were all able to give their statements.
00:23:58.393 --> 00:24:03.353
And every single one of those that were on the prosecutor's side of the aisle asked for the full 21.
00:24:03.713 --> 00:24:08.953
Everyone on my side of the aisle asked for seven. I just asked for mercy and
00:24:08.953 --> 00:24:14.593
the judge split the difference and sentenced me to 14 years in the Department of Corrections. Wow.
00:24:15.393 --> 00:24:22.773
Wow. Wow. Wow. What was going through your head when that sentence came out? This can't be real.
00:24:23.213 --> 00:24:27.853
There's there's just no way there. There was so much so much disbelief.
00:24:27.853 --> 00:24:30.853
You know, I was remember at that point I was I was thinking,
00:24:30.893 --> 00:24:34.453
you know, one or two was what I was hoping for. So I think there was just there
00:24:34.453 --> 00:24:36.613
was a ton of disbelief that this was happening.
00:24:36.693 --> 00:24:41.033
It couldn't be real. And then I think there was also some sort of what I'm going to call misplaced hope.
00:24:41.153 --> 00:24:44.853
You know, everybody, everybody that's in the jail or prison system has,
00:24:44.933 --> 00:24:49.713
I shouldn't say everybody, but many people have this clinging hope that their
00:24:49.713 --> 00:24:54.153
case is going to be overturned or they're going to get relief or whatever.
00:24:54.153 --> 00:24:57.713
And so even as a part of sentencing, the judge will tell you,
00:24:57.733 --> 00:25:00.113
you are always welcome to file for post-conviction relief.
00:25:00.553 --> 00:25:03.253
So I think that was what I clung to in that moment.
00:25:03.793 --> 00:25:08.833
Yeah, it was just very surreal. I was sharing with someone just the other day.
00:25:08.853 --> 00:25:15.093
So the whole experience now, even looking back on it, is just extraordinarily surreal.
00:25:15.673 --> 00:25:19.273
If you were to look at me, Kevin, and you were to say, John,
00:25:19.333 --> 00:25:20.933
what are you talking about?
00:25:21.033 --> 00:25:26.413
You never went to prison. And that's, that's insane. What are you like? Are you okay?
00:25:27.120 --> 00:25:33.660
Like, I would have a hard time, like, arguing. It's still such a dream and just,
00:25:33.720 --> 00:25:37.080
like, such a surreal experience that as I reflect back on it,
00:25:37.140 --> 00:25:39.960
the only thing that I can really point to that I would say, no,
00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:41.080
it absolutely happened,
00:25:41.160 --> 00:25:44.540
is the amount of growth that came out of it all. Wow.
00:25:45.120 --> 00:25:53.120
Now, for myself, the idea of going to prison, especially for a sentence of 14
00:25:53.120 --> 00:25:59.420
years, it's literally gut-wrenchingly terrifying to me.
00:25:59.700 --> 00:26:04.740
Yeah, yeah, especially at 19. So 14 years is, I mean, that's a lifetime to a 19-year-old.
00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.840
Exactly. And, and you don't really know what to expect.
00:26:08.040 --> 00:26:12.880
You're, you're hoping for, hoping for the best. I was in county jail for nine
00:26:12.880 --> 00:26:16.060
months, kind of fighting the case, if you can call it that.
00:26:16.660 --> 00:26:20.460
And the God just really surrounded me with, with people that,
00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:23.360
I don't know if they were good people, but for whatever reason,
00:26:23.440 --> 00:26:26.600
they, they seem to want to provide some level of help.
00:26:26.760 --> 00:26:29.680
And so they would, you know, give me a little, little tidbits like,
00:26:29.780 --> 00:26:33.100
Hey, you know, if you, you end up going to prison, here's, here's things that
00:26:33.100 --> 00:26:36.420
you need to know. No, unfortunately, most of them hadn't been there for a while
00:26:36.420 --> 00:26:37.860
and they didn't realize things had changed.
00:26:37.980 --> 00:26:41.140
So many of the pieces of advice that I was given, while I can see where there
00:26:41.140 --> 00:26:44.900
would have been value, it didn't end up serving me super well.
00:26:45.300 --> 00:26:51.980
And so, yeah, it was, man, again, just very surreal. And then my placement got canceled.
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:55.460
So I was I went back to jail where they're supposed to, OK, you know,
00:26:55.460 --> 00:26:58.360
get you ready and then take you to prison. And usually that takes about a week.
00:26:58.440 --> 00:27:03.240
Well, a week came and went and I still wasn't gone and nobody could figure out why.
00:27:04.040 --> 00:27:07.360
And to this day, I don't know what happened, but I know there was a moment there
00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:11.740
where I was just, I was sure that the whole thing had fallen apart and that
00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:14.760
I was going home, and of course, that did not happen.
00:27:15.000 --> 00:27:17.220
Eventually, I think it was two weeks later or maybe even three,
00:27:17.280 --> 00:27:20.300
I was eventually transferred to the Department of Corrections,
00:27:20.340 --> 00:27:23.300
and I think where they really struggled was I think it was a classification
00:27:23.300 --> 00:27:26.140
question because they were trying to reconcile,
00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:30.180
the difference between such a serious crime, such a young person,
00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:31.740
and no previous backstory, story.
00:27:31.900 --> 00:27:35.440
And so they were trying to figure out how best to classify me in prison,
00:27:35.500 --> 00:27:38.520
because in jail, it's crime is all that matters. It doesn't matter what you're
00:27:38.520 --> 00:27:39.960
anything else in prison.
00:27:40.020 --> 00:27:43.520
They use other criteria to classify whether you're going to go to medium custody
00:27:43.520 --> 00:27:46.560
or minimum custody or maximum custody or whatever.
00:27:46.740 --> 00:27:51.000
So I think that that's what it was now. But anyways, yeah, I ended up going to prison.
00:27:51.300 --> 00:27:54.720
I did end up filing for post-conviction relief. Nothing happened.
00:27:54.920 --> 00:27:58.620
I also applied for something known as clemency, which is basically,
00:27:58.700 --> 00:28:02.700
I'm sorry, Sorry, I did it, but I'm doing better. Will you please take some time off my sentence?
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:06.420
That also was not fruitful to my cause.
00:28:06.600 --> 00:28:12.920
And so I was in a position where I spent 14 years under the jurisdiction of
00:28:12.920 --> 00:28:16.780
the Department of Corrections, 12 of which was actually behind bars,
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:21.100
and the other two was out on community supervision. Wow, wow, wow, wow.
00:28:22.040 --> 00:28:23.500
So, I mean...
00:28:24.753 --> 00:28:29.773
I don't even know how to summarize the idea of 12 years locked away in prison.
00:28:29.933 --> 00:28:35.513
But talk to me about life during that time in your life.
00:28:35.773 --> 00:28:39.553
I mean, like I said, 12 years, it's a big time to summarize.
00:28:39.713 --> 00:28:46.873
But give me a snapshot of what life kind of was and what did it take on?
00:28:47.173 --> 00:28:51.613
Well, when I had been given those tidbits of advice in jail,
00:28:51.713 --> 00:28:54.553
one of the things I was told is that when I got to prison, people would kind
00:28:54.553 --> 00:28:58.793
of just watch me for a couple of weeks, kind of see what I was about, how I carried myself.
00:28:59.233 --> 00:29:02.713
And then someone might approach me from different groups or whatever to,
00:29:02.713 --> 00:29:07.053
to find out, you know, kind of what I wanted my quote unquote prison career to look like.
00:29:07.253 --> 00:29:11.013
That is not what happened. What happened was I had been there about three minutes
00:29:11.013 --> 00:29:14.273
and I got attacked from behind by three people who were trying to make a name
00:29:14.273 --> 00:29:20.033
for themselves to see if I would fight back or if I was going to be a lame in the prison system.
00:29:20.053 --> 00:29:22.573
But I didn't know what was going on. And I knew that I wasn't getting,
00:29:22.593 --> 00:29:23.953
uh, getting raped today.
00:29:24.233 --> 00:29:28.133
And so I fought back with everything I had and with, you know,
00:29:28.133 --> 00:29:31.553
three black belts under, under my belt, I did okay.
00:29:31.593 --> 00:29:39.693
And that, that altercation and that moment set a tone that really, I think God used to help.
00:29:39.833 --> 00:29:44.673
And then just, there's just so many moments where I can only thank him for the
00:29:44.673 --> 00:29:49.433
wisdom that I, that I had where that moment kind of made it to where people
00:29:49.433 --> 00:29:53.373
were just like, okay, he's not causing. any problems. We'll, we'll leave him alone.
00:29:53.873 --> 00:29:57.753
They, there wasn't, you know, no gangs were trying to force me to join them.
00:29:57.833 --> 00:30:01.653
There was no, or there was less pressure to do stupid things.
00:30:02.053 --> 00:30:08.273
And I was again, somehow in dude with a little bit of wisdom where I knew where to draw lines.
00:30:08.413 --> 00:30:12.313
And if you draw lines in the beginning, it's a whole lot easier than drawing lines in the end.
00:30:12.453 --> 00:30:14.993
And I think that that that's obvious just even from the crime,
00:30:15.073 --> 00:30:18.753
right? I think if anybody in the beginning had just said, no, I'm not doing this.
00:30:18.793 --> 00:30:22.433
We never would have been on that roof. It's a lot harder once you're already there.
00:30:23.025 --> 00:30:27.025
And so once I was in prison, there was a lot of value that was there.
00:30:27.085 --> 00:30:33.725
While I was in jail, I had recognized that I was not the person that I claimed to be.
00:30:33.925 --> 00:30:39.585
I recognized that my way wasn't working, and I submitted to Christ as the Lord of my life.
00:30:39.725 --> 00:30:44.325
I had made a profession of faith earlier in my life, but at this point,
00:30:44.365 --> 00:30:47.505
I don't believe it was legitimate. I think I was looking for fire insurance back then.
00:30:47.685 --> 00:30:51.845
And so just kind of really submitting to him and so studying the Bible and eventually
00:30:51.845 --> 00:30:54.965
leading some Bible studies and things, got to prison.
00:30:55.225 --> 00:30:57.925
And it was really just, okay, I'm here.
00:30:58.205 --> 00:31:01.365
I'm hoping not to be here for too much longer. But while I'm here,
00:31:01.445 --> 00:31:02.805
how am I going to make the most of it?
00:31:02.905 --> 00:31:08.045
And the title that I have given to my published story is Redeeming the Time,
00:31:08.665 --> 00:31:11.225
because that was really the summary.
00:31:11.305 --> 00:31:15.425
You want a summary of 12 years, it was a desire to make the most of every moment,
00:31:15.585 --> 00:31:19.985
a desire to grow personally and to empower others to do the same,
00:31:20.085 --> 00:31:25.965
a desire and a execution of learning and growth and rehabilitation.
00:31:26.785 --> 00:31:31.325
And like I said, that is really, I can look at that now and say,
00:31:31.425 --> 00:31:35.965
if you want proof that this happened, look at who John was 15 years ago and
00:31:35.965 --> 00:31:37.125
look at who John is today.
00:31:37.265 --> 00:31:41.465
And you're going to have to acknowledge there's a dynamic difference. Yeah, yeah.
00:31:41.905 --> 00:31:46.985
Powerful, powerful, powerful. When you look back during this time,
00:31:47.685 --> 00:31:50.845
is there any moments that stand out the most to you as.
00:31:51.787 --> 00:31:57.187
A really transformational period or a moment in time that was extremely positive,
00:31:57.287 --> 00:32:02.247
that gave you encouragement, that gave you hope for the future? Any moments like that?
00:32:02.867 --> 00:32:06.687
Absolutely. Really, I mean, a ton, a ton of moments.
00:32:06.827 --> 00:32:12.827
But I think that most of them were the same type of moments that we have in
00:32:12.827 --> 00:32:14.507
our everyday lives that we just miss.
00:32:14.927 --> 00:32:20.327
And when you become acutely aware of them, it really, really just serves to
00:32:20.327 --> 00:32:21.427
encourage an individual.
00:32:21.967 --> 00:32:27.807
Often we're looking for major incidents instead of consistent grace.
00:32:28.307 --> 00:32:32.327
And the, the idea there is, I mean, there, there are times, right?
00:32:32.427 --> 00:32:35.207
There were, there were many times I found out at one point that there was actually
00:32:35.207 --> 00:32:39.787
a price put on my head that was actually removed and taken care of before I
00:32:39.787 --> 00:32:42.907
even knew about it, you know, before anything, anything happened.
00:32:42.947 --> 00:32:47.227
And so you have some major moments like that, or I think of a similar scenario
00:32:47.227 --> 00:32:51.627
where I was really working and dedicated to... I just moved to a new unit,
00:32:51.687 --> 00:32:55.947
being reclassified to minimum custody, was dedicated to working on some school
00:32:55.947 --> 00:32:57.687
stuff that I was working toward.
00:32:58.107 --> 00:33:01.567
And I was approached by someone I'd never even met before. And he said,
00:33:01.687 --> 00:33:03.387
hey, I'm getting ready to go home.
00:33:03.667 --> 00:33:07.987
And I think you would be the best candidate to replace me in my job.
00:33:08.107 --> 00:33:11.227
And I didn't know who he was. I didn't know what his job was.
00:33:11.367 --> 00:33:12.427
I didn't have any understanding.
00:33:12.927 --> 00:33:18.367
And it turns out that someone or someones had been observing me as I'd gotten to the new unit.
00:33:18.507 --> 00:33:22.767
Some people who had known me from previous units had put in some sort of a recommendation,
00:33:22.827 --> 00:33:28.247
but this was what could arguably be the job with the most responsibility on the unit.
00:33:28.647 --> 00:33:33.587
And I just was like, I didn't apply for this. I didn't ask for this. This is incredible.
00:33:33.907 --> 00:33:37.307
And those moments are just very encouraging. Those moments are,
00:33:37.427 --> 00:33:39.507
they provide personal inspiration.
00:33:39.587 --> 00:33:43.287
And they were, they were kind of just like, okay, you know, we're,
00:33:43.347 --> 00:33:45.207
we're, we're moving in the right direction.
00:33:45.247 --> 00:33:48.367
Now there were also many moments where you just question everything and it's
00:33:48.367 --> 00:33:49.647
like, man, what is going on?
00:33:49.747 --> 00:33:51.847
Why, why would that happen?
00:33:51.967 --> 00:33:55.927
I, that, that doesn't, that doesn't play into the way that I think things should be going.
00:33:56.478 --> 00:34:01.518
I think of the time where I helped run a Christmas service at one of the units
00:34:01.518 --> 00:34:08.858
and the senior chaplain of the complex took great offense that an inmate would
00:34:08.858 --> 00:34:14.738
be spearheading a religious event and took so much offense to it,
00:34:14.778 --> 00:34:19.098
in fact, that he tried to actually send me through disciplinary proceedings
00:34:19.098 --> 00:34:23.578
for usurping authority or manipulation of staff or something because
00:34:23.638 --> 00:34:28.818
he felt like I had had too much sway over the event that didn't work,
00:34:28.878 --> 00:34:33.858
but he was able to get me moved randomly off complex further away from my family.
00:34:34.038 --> 00:34:36.778
And it was like, seriously, like, I'm just trying to do the right thing.
00:34:36.838 --> 00:34:38.278
I'm trying to help. I'm trying to be a blessing.
00:34:38.378 --> 00:34:42.198
I'm trying to serve and this, but even in that scenario, you know,
00:34:42.198 --> 00:34:45.958
you flip back to the other side, I got to that new unit and that new unit had
00:34:45.958 --> 00:34:49.658
a deputy warden that really, really valued what's called peer education,
00:34:49.878 --> 00:34:52.938
inmate peer programming, which is something that I helped to develop while I
00:34:52.938 --> 00:34:55.038
was in the Department of Corrections.
00:34:55.158 --> 00:35:00.698
And so we developed one of the most comprehensive programs in the state while
00:35:00.698 --> 00:35:03.238
I was there with incredible success ratio.
00:35:03.498 --> 00:35:06.878
And it was very fulfilling to be able to serve in that place.
00:35:07.018 --> 00:35:12.318
And so for every disappointment and discouragement, there was an inspiration and encouragement.
00:35:12.798 --> 00:35:18.078
And when you just kind of look back on the summation of the entire experience.
00:35:18.878 --> 00:35:23.738
You have in the title of your podcast, Grace, and that really,
00:35:23.838 --> 00:35:27.938
I feel like, very well summarizes the entire experience.
00:35:28.258 --> 00:35:32.878
It was no cakewalk. It was certainly not fun many times, but there were so many
00:35:32.878 --> 00:35:34.978
moments where I can just say, man,
00:35:35.737 --> 00:35:39.777
I don't know how that happened the way it did, but boy, I'm sure thankful it
00:35:39.777 --> 00:35:42.197
was or it did. Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:43.077 --> 00:35:47.497
I admire your insight.
00:35:47.857 --> 00:35:53.897
I admire your mindset when you look back on this and you share this with us
00:35:53.897 --> 00:36:02.797
today of a experience that I spoke of earlier that terrifies me, shakes me at my core.
00:36:02.797 --> 00:36:09.817
And yet I listened to you. And even though it was that you have these moments
00:36:09.817 --> 00:36:17.677
where you not only turned your life around and got yourself this own transformation,
00:36:17.977 --> 00:36:21.257
but we're also helping to lead others in it as well.
00:36:21.997 --> 00:36:26.937
Yeah. And there's so much intrinsic value in that, right?
00:36:27.417 --> 00:36:31.717
You have to address internal issues before you can really help anybody else.
00:36:31.837 --> 00:36:35.717
And so I think that was very, very important for me to acknowledge my own lack
00:36:35.717 --> 00:36:40.837
of character, my own lack of integrity, my own issues, and really take a moment
00:36:40.837 --> 00:36:45.037
to just say, okay, that's not okay. And this needs to be addressed.
00:36:45.297 --> 00:36:48.817
And that wasn't like a singular decision, you know, that has to be,
00:36:48.817 --> 00:36:51.177
that decision has to be made every single day.
00:36:51.337 --> 00:36:58.777
But while that decision has to be made, there is so much purpose in helping
00:36:58.777 --> 00:37:00.217
others on their journey.
00:37:00.754 --> 00:37:06.094
That was such a privilege because for pretty much the entire time I was incarcerated,
00:37:06.334 --> 00:37:08.534
I got to help people earn their GEDs.
00:37:08.554 --> 00:37:13.034
I got to help people participate in peer education classes and rehabilitation
00:37:13.034 --> 00:37:19.214
courses and learn new skills and look at their own character and assess their
00:37:19.214 --> 00:37:24.314
own tendencies and habits and things like that. And I got to lead spiritually.
00:37:24.694 --> 00:37:29.074
I got to serve in the churches there that are in prison and got to be a blessing
00:37:29.074 --> 00:37:30.914
in that way and got to help the community.
00:37:31.014 --> 00:37:34.414
We would do fundraisers and support charitable causes.
00:37:34.754 --> 00:37:39.494
And so just, I really got to be a part of a ton of really great stuff and found
00:37:39.494 --> 00:37:44.174
incredible purpose. And you talk about like a light bulb moments a minute ago. I'll never forget.
00:37:44.294 --> 00:37:49.534
It was after one of my, one of my experiences where I did not get the relief I was looking for.
00:37:49.654 --> 00:37:52.514
And I remember thinking or recognizing, not thinking to myself,
00:37:52.594 --> 00:37:56.774
but recognizing that the souls that were in front of me, the ones I was serving
00:37:56.774 --> 00:38:01.914
were just as important as the ones I was trying to get out to deal with and to serve.
00:38:01.914 --> 00:38:07.854
And that was a moment of clarity that I really appreciate that so many times
00:38:07.854 --> 00:38:09.314
I feel like, in fact, even people,
00:38:09.414 --> 00:38:13.014
well-meaning people that really wanted the best for me would say things like,
00:38:13.094 --> 00:38:15.754
well, you know, you're in a time of preparation and when you get out,
00:38:15.834 --> 00:38:17.334
you're going to make such an impact.
00:38:17.654 --> 00:38:19.634
And, and they were, you know, they believed in me. They were,
00:38:19.634 --> 00:38:23.414
they were trying to be encouraging, but it speaks to this idea that what I was
00:38:23.414 --> 00:38:28.234
doing there was less important than those people were, were less impacted or
00:38:28.234 --> 00:38:32.474
less needful or less deserving maybe. And that's just simply not true.
00:38:32.594 --> 00:38:41.094
The reality that is very, very impressed on my heart now is that those souls were just as valuable.
00:38:41.254 --> 00:38:44.794
Those individuals deserved just as much dignity.
00:38:44.974 --> 00:38:48.474
And I had the privilege for 12 years to serve that community.
00:38:48.654 --> 00:38:54.894
And I lived every day with the ambition to leave that community a better place than I found it.
00:38:54.974 --> 00:38:59.134
Whether I succeeded, I'm sure is up for debate, but I certainly gave it my best effort.
00:38:59.683 --> 00:39:02.703
Yeah. Wow. Wow, wow, wow.
00:39:03.043 --> 00:39:07.523
My last question that I'm really curious about before we kind of start moving
00:39:07.523 --> 00:39:12.843
forward in your story is you talk a lot about leading, you know,
00:39:12.843 --> 00:39:15.063
groups and with your faith and stuff.
00:39:15.063 --> 00:39:19.923
And what is faith like behind bars?
00:39:20.143 --> 00:39:27.063
Because I think so many of us can maybe think that these horrible people,
00:39:27.203 --> 00:39:32.823
quote unquote, who are in prison, that they're probably not Christians or they don't go to church.
00:39:33.023 --> 00:39:35.883
So talk to me about that whole aspect.
00:39:36.363 --> 00:39:40.563
That's a great question, Kevin, because I think there's more than one answer.
00:39:40.663 --> 00:39:44.123
And I'm going to do my very best to not take the rest of our podcast talking about it.
00:39:45.183 --> 00:39:48.683
But yeah, it's a fantastic question. So first and foremost,
00:39:48.843 --> 00:39:52.643
I'll say that one of the other epiphanies that I had,
00:39:52.803 --> 00:39:55.863
and I think it's necessary for all of us to have, I think that if there's anyone
00:39:55.863 --> 00:40:00.143
on this podcast that disagrees with my next statement, I would just ask you
00:40:00.143 --> 00:40:04.223
to really search your heart and kind of just ask like what God's heart is on this.
00:40:04.523 --> 00:40:07.663
And if you come to a different conclusion, that's fine. But this is something
00:40:07.663 --> 00:40:13.583
that I believe very strongly. And that and that is that I did not need God's grace any less.
00:40:14.546 --> 00:40:17.586
Than the very worst of the people that I was surrounded by.
00:40:17.746 --> 00:40:23.606
That was a pivotal moment in my journey where I recognized that these horrible
00:40:23.606 --> 00:40:26.726
people were not any worse than I was.
00:40:27.246 --> 00:40:33.186
Maybe it manifested differently in their life. Maybe their sin and their reality
00:40:33.186 --> 00:40:35.886
impacted people more negatively.
00:40:36.146 --> 00:40:41.086
But when it came down to the root core of character, I was just as bad as them.
00:40:41.186 --> 00:40:44.866
And I think that was really important for me to understand Because once you
00:40:44.866 --> 00:40:47.646
understand things through that framework, at this point, it's not like,
00:40:47.686 --> 00:40:49.746
oh, they're horrible people. How could God love them?
00:40:49.866 --> 00:40:53.906
It's more like, I'm sure glad that God loves horrible people because that's me.
00:40:54.326 --> 00:40:58.906
And it really changes the framework. With that being said, I do think you kind
00:40:58.906 --> 00:41:02.046
of find three different classifications of Christians.
00:41:02.246 --> 00:41:08.306
Maybe that's oversimplifying it, but three general classifications of Christians in the prison context.
00:41:08.586 --> 00:41:12.126
You have what I'm going to call the jailhouse Jesus Christians.
00:41:12.126 --> 00:41:15.266
These are the ones that find Jesus every time they come to jail.
00:41:15.406 --> 00:41:18.106
It gives them a sense of purpose. It gives them a sense of community.
00:41:18.246 --> 00:41:20.026
It might keep them out of trouble.
00:41:20.226 --> 00:41:25.126
And so it's very convenient for them. But the relationship that they claim to
00:41:25.126 --> 00:41:29.826
have has never impacted their life in such a way that it keeps them from coming back.
00:41:29.986 --> 00:41:35.526
It just kind of provides them a way to meaningfully go through the experience with each repetition.
00:41:35.866 --> 00:41:39.526
Those are ones that I think are very frustrating for many families and why the
00:41:39.526 --> 00:41:44.626
idea of jailhouse Jesus became popular because there was a time back in maybe
00:41:44.626 --> 00:41:47.886
the late 80s, early 90s, where if somebody went before a judge and said,
00:41:47.946 --> 00:41:51.886
I found Jesus and my life has changed, the judge would say, okay, cool.
00:41:52.026 --> 00:41:55.026
I believe in redemption and we're going to change your sentence.
00:41:55.126 --> 00:41:57.246
We're going to give you less. We're going to let you out, whatever it was.
00:41:57.466 --> 00:42:01.686
And judges quickly became disenfranchised with the number of people who claimed
00:42:01.686 --> 00:42:05.806
radical life change only to see them come back months or years later.
00:42:05.946 --> 00:42:09.306
So that's certainly a group that's there and it's disappointing.
00:42:09.306 --> 00:42:11.926
Disappointing, but you never know who those people are, right?
00:42:11.986 --> 00:42:14.666
You never know which time it's actually going to resonate.
00:42:14.906 --> 00:42:19.006
You never know which time the former seeds will take root.
00:42:19.206 --> 00:42:24.326
And so trying not to be judgmental and trying not to view them in a diminished
00:42:24.326 --> 00:42:28.046
light, again, just trying to serve the people that are in front of you.
00:42:28.126 --> 00:42:31.906
The second group of Christians are the just straight up hypocrites,
00:42:31.966 --> 00:42:32.846
the straight up hypocrites.
00:42:32.966 --> 00:42:37.846
You have the individuals that are are literally in church because that is a
00:42:37.846 --> 00:42:40.086
place where they can meet up with people from other buildings.
00:42:40.246 --> 00:42:41.506
That's where they're passing drugs.
00:42:41.766 --> 00:42:44.986
That's where they're swapping, you know, notes and letters.
00:42:45.466 --> 00:42:49.546
Sometimes it's because they're in some form of, uh, of, of trouble on the unit,
00:42:49.686 --> 00:42:53.446
whether that's administrative trouble and they're trying to prove that they're,
00:42:53.446 --> 00:42:56.266
you know, doing the right thing, or maybe it's, they're in trouble with the
00:42:56.266 --> 00:43:00.226
other inmates and they're, they're trying to gain some level of, of protection by,
00:43:00.326 --> 00:43:03.586
you know, I'm a Christian and, and I don't know what what they thought that
00:43:03.586 --> 00:43:06.246
would mean, because I sure saw a whole lot of pseudo-Christians,
00:43:06.714 --> 00:43:11.794
get mollywhopped because their actions did not align up with their stated beliefs.
00:43:12.134 --> 00:43:15.254
But those are less frustrating because they're easy to identify.
00:43:15.414 --> 00:43:18.794
And I said for many, many years while I was in prison, you can be just about
00:43:18.794 --> 00:43:21.614
anybody you want in the prison setting as long as you're consistent.
00:43:21.854 --> 00:43:25.854
And it's the inconsistent ones that just nobody has any respect for whatsoever.
00:43:26.154 --> 00:43:29.934
And so those straight hypocrites, nobody respected them. The Christians didn't
00:43:29.934 --> 00:43:31.954
trust them. Of course, we tried to love them.
00:43:32.014 --> 00:43:36.874
We tried to give them grace, but there was no real camaraderie or brotherly
00:43:36.874 --> 00:43:42.494
love because we simultaneously knew that it was, in many cases, a facade.
00:43:42.634 --> 00:43:47.354
So we just tried to plant seeds as we were able and love them in the best way that we knew how.
00:43:47.594 --> 00:43:50.294
And meanwhile, no one out of the yard respects them either because,
00:43:50.354 --> 00:43:52.294
again, they know that they're one way.
00:43:52.374 --> 00:43:55.334
You're in a fishbowl. Everyone knows everything you're doing in that setting.
00:43:55.394 --> 00:43:58.814
There is no secrecy. There is no privacy. There is no sneaking around.
00:43:59.354 --> 00:44:03.174
Everyone knows you're You're kind of in the middle of the open air.
00:44:03.354 --> 00:44:07.154
And so people know and people just don't respect them. And then you have those
00:44:07.154 --> 00:44:09.034
that are just trying to serve God.
00:44:09.254 --> 00:44:13.954
And the cool thing about the prison context is, in large part,
00:44:14.074 --> 00:44:18.914
the whole separation of denominations and whether or not you're of the right
00:44:18.914 --> 00:44:23.374
brand of Christianity kind of goes out the window. There's a little bit of that.
00:44:23.474 --> 00:44:27.994
There are some kind of cults that coalesce there. But if you believe that Jesus
00:44:27.994 --> 00:44:32.434
is God and that he came and paid for your sins, you're probably going to just
00:44:32.434 --> 00:44:34.734
find the other people that believe the same thing.
00:44:34.854 --> 00:44:37.694
And you're really going to find fellowship and unity in that scenario.
00:44:38.054 --> 00:44:44.474
And I've had many, many people who have said to me that going into the prison
00:44:44.474 --> 00:44:49.174
system as a volunteer has shown them what church can really look like.
00:44:49.174 --> 00:44:55.854
That, you know, they just, the authenticity of the singing and the passion of
00:44:55.854 --> 00:45:00.194
the prayers and things where people are just, they're not encumbered by all
00:45:00.194 --> 00:45:03.034
of the distractions that exist out here in the free world.
00:45:03.618 --> 00:45:07.278
And they really have nothing better to do than just study.
00:45:07.418 --> 00:45:10.878
And so you have some theologians in there. I mean, people that you would try
00:45:10.878 --> 00:45:13.458
to have a conversation with and you'd think, oh, they're an inmate.
00:45:13.638 --> 00:45:17.798
I'm going to go in there and I'll try to dumb it down for them and hopefully
00:45:17.798 --> 00:45:18.938
I don't speak over their head.
00:45:19.038 --> 00:45:23.958
And then they'll ask you some question about the disposition of Christ on the
00:45:23.958 --> 00:45:27.698
Mount of Transfiguration and whether or not that was a Christology or whether
00:45:27.698 --> 00:45:30.278
that was an actual metaphysical transformation.
00:45:30.278 --> 00:45:33.918
I mean, and you'll be like, yeah, I never heard half those terms.
00:45:33.958 --> 00:45:35.458
So I'm going to get back to you on that.
00:45:35.578 --> 00:45:40.698
And so you have people that just spend an incredible amount of time that studying
00:45:40.698 --> 00:45:43.818
and learning and trying to develop their faith.
00:45:43.918 --> 00:45:47.058
And so it's really kind of a three part beast.
00:45:47.058 --> 00:45:52.238
I think that in that last group, there is maybe a subgroup that I would have
00:45:52.238 --> 00:45:57.338
to say you never really know if they belong in the first group or the third group,
00:45:57.398 --> 00:45:58.838
because they are usually some
00:45:58.838 --> 00:46:02.958
of the most studied and the most passionate and the most well-behaved.
00:46:02.958 --> 00:46:07.578
And so from all outward appearance, they're very sincere and you can only give
00:46:07.578 --> 00:46:08.678
them the benefit of the doubt.
00:46:08.918 --> 00:46:13.398
But you wonder sometimes not because of their actions, but because they genuinely
00:46:13.398 --> 00:46:17.678
believe that it is God's will for them to get out of prison ASAP.
00:46:17.958 --> 00:46:23.618
And so you wonder at times, are they studying and being a part of everything
00:46:23.618 --> 00:46:27.198
because they would be willing to go to prison for Jesus?
00:46:27.618 --> 00:46:30.958
Or are they doing it because they're hoping Jesus will get them out of prison?
00:46:30.958 --> 00:46:35.238
And that was something that was always very burdensome to me because there are
00:46:35.238 --> 00:46:39.818
some really dear brothers that I know in there that just, man,
00:46:39.958 --> 00:46:44.458
they've been clinging to this idea that it's not God's will for them to be there.
00:46:44.778 --> 00:46:47.698
And it's like, well, he still has you there, if nothing else.
00:46:47.878 --> 00:46:51.198
Maybe he is going to bring you out sooner rather than later.
00:46:51.318 --> 00:46:55.058
But I know when I study the Bible, I see a whole lot more people going into
00:46:55.058 --> 00:46:59.158
prison for doing the right thing than I see God getting people out of prison
00:46:59.158 --> 00:47:00.538
after they've done the wrong thing.
00:47:00.958 --> 00:47:05.738
And so I think that there's there's that kind of subgroup that you pray for
00:47:05.738 --> 00:47:09.798
them, you love them, and you really hope that the legitimacy is as legitimate
00:47:09.798 --> 00:47:12.238
as it appears. Yeah. Wow.
00:47:13.078 --> 00:47:19.038
Very, very interesting. I love the way that you could explain that,
00:47:19.118 --> 00:47:23.278
answer that question broken down into the three segments.
00:47:23.518 --> 00:47:30.018
Very interesting. It's literally a it's a community within the prison.
00:47:30.642 --> 00:47:37.062
Of people of all different shapes and sizes and beliefs and prerogatives.
00:47:37.222 --> 00:47:43.682
And to hear you break that down, that was really cool. So thank you for taking the time to do that.
00:47:43.902 --> 00:47:46.622
Yeah, it's basically a microcosm of society.
00:47:46.922 --> 00:47:50.122
It's just on a more visible display.
00:47:50.502 --> 00:47:55.682
Yes. So, I mean, you have those same groups in the real world with just maybe different motives.
00:47:55.882 --> 00:47:59.542
Maybe it's not to get out of prison. Maybe it's to restore a marriage or whatever.
00:47:59.762 --> 00:48:02.722
You have the same people that are, you know, just straight hypocrites,
00:48:02.782 --> 00:48:05.642
whatever I was. I was that person. I was the person that was completely different
00:48:05.642 --> 00:48:07.522
on Saturday night than I was on Sunday morning.
00:48:07.622 --> 00:48:11.362
That was that was me to the core so that the groups exist out here.
00:48:11.462 --> 00:48:13.562
They're just not as clearly on display.
00:48:13.822 --> 00:48:19.642
And prison is very, very much a microcosm of the outside world. Yeah. Yeah.
00:48:19.942 --> 00:48:23.362
Would you end up serving all 14 years?
00:48:23.662 --> 00:48:27.942
With the understanding that two of those years were technically outside under
00:48:27.942 --> 00:48:31.242
community supervision, the answer is absolutely yes. I served every day of it.
00:48:31.462 --> 00:48:34.642
Okay. So 12 years behind bars. Correct.
00:48:34.922 --> 00:48:37.782
Talk to me about getting out of prison.
00:48:38.062 --> 00:48:44.002
During my time, I had, as I've mentioned, placed a great emphasis on growth.
00:48:44.242 --> 00:48:48.542
And one of the things that I very firmly believed in is the best time to start
00:48:48.542 --> 00:48:51.122
preparing to get out is the day you walk in.
00:48:51.662 --> 00:48:54.742
That was a piece of advice that someone had given me along the way.
00:48:54.842 --> 00:48:57.382
And I tried to embody that and live that.
00:48:57.502 --> 00:49:03.902
And so part of my efforts to get ready to get out was to ask people who had
00:49:03.902 --> 00:49:09.002
gotten out what to expect, what I should be looking at facing and what things
00:49:09.002 --> 00:49:10.542
I should be prepared to overcome.
00:49:10.782 --> 00:49:13.322
And one of the things that are many of the things I've been told,
00:49:13.342 --> 00:49:16.522
but one of them was basically how difficult it was going to be,
00:49:16.562 --> 00:49:18.562
that the transition was going to be very harsh.
00:49:18.742 --> 00:49:22.002
Some examples, you don't have a refrigerator in prison.
00:49:22.162 --> 00:49:25.782
And so I heard stories from one person who would literally just stand there
00:49:25.782 --> 00:49:28.302
with the refrigerator and open and close it because they just,
00:49:28.322 --> 00:49:30.662
it was like they were in a tick. They couldn't continue.
00:49:30.982 --> 00:49:34.842
Something else, you never walk barefoot in prison. You always wear like,
00:49:34.922 --> 00:49:37.602
they call them shower shoes, but basically they're just sandals,
00:49:37.602 --> 00:49:38.942
like beach sandals or whatever.
00:49:39.142 --> 00:49:43.142
And so the feel of carpet on your feet, the ability to make a decision.
00:49:43.302 --> 00:49:47.022
Yes, there's a commissary where you can buy little snacks, but to walk down
00:49:47.022 --> 00:49:51.062
one aisle of the store and see nothing but cereals and to be able to make that
00:49:51.062 --> 00:49:53.062
decision would just paralyze people.
00:49:53.500 --> 00:49:58.840
And so I was prepared for this. I was prepared for a difficult transition and
00:49:58.840 --> 00:50:00.740
I was geared up and ready to go.
00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:05.720
I walked out of prison that first day and my brother was there to pick me up.
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:09.420
We weren't 100% certain what day I was getting out, which is probably a longer story.
00:50:09.500 --> 00:50:13.020
But bottom line is, is the state of Arizona has like a range that they can let you out.
00:50:13.120 --> 00:50:17.180
And so instead of breaking my family's hearts by having them expect day one,
00:50:17.220 --> 00:50:20.020
when it was actually going to be day 30, I just told them day 30.
00:50:20.140 --> 00:50:24.380
And then when I got out on day 10, most everybody but my brother was surprised.
00:50:24.580 --> 00:50:25.820
So that was a really neat experience.
00:50:26.040 --> 00:50:29.540
But in any case, I got out, walked in my brother's vehicle.
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:32.880
He handed me... We talked. My brother was extremely supportive.
00:50:33.060 --> 00:50:37.160
I could spend two different podcasts just talking about the wonderful support
00:50:37.160 --> 00:50:39.360
that my brother provided over the years of my incarceration.
00:50:39.680 --> 00:50:43.880
But he was there. He handed me one of his old phones. And he said,
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:47.200
it's already hooked up and ready for you. And the first month is paid for.
00:50:47.340 --> 00:50:50.760
And we had talked, I told him I didn't want to be a charity case.
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:54.300
I wanted to try to work through things and I was going to be getting a job.
00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.800
He said, so you can start paying your part of the bill on month two.
00:50:56.960 --> 00:51:00.020
And somehow, I honestly don't know how, I knew how to use the phone.
00:51:00.360 --> 00:51:04.360
Hadn't touched a phone like that in 50, well, never really, never a phone like
00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:07.420
that 15 years before or 12 years before those phones didn't exist.
00:51:07.940 --> 00:51:12.220
And I had worked hard in there to remain up to date with technology.
00:51:12.220 --> 00:51:15.980
I was one of the few inmates that almost always had access to a computer due
00:51:15.980 --> 00:51:17.020
to the work that I was doing.
00:51:17.080 --> 00:51:22.480
But we were talking desktops with Windows XP, not the latest version of Galaxy
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:23.340
smartphones. our phones.
00:51:23.560 --> 00:51:27.780
And so somehow I actually pretty much knew what I was doing.
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:30.560
And we surprised my cousin for breakfast.
00:51:30.660 --> 00:51:35.620
And somehow I had no problem engaging with the waitress or ordering off the menu.
00:51:35.860 --> 00:51:41.600
And we surprised my parents at lunch. And somehow I had no issue engaging the
00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:44.740
counter at lunch and engaging in public with my parents.
00:51:44.900 --> 00:51:48.180
And I could just keep going on. The bottom line is, is this,
00:51:48.220 --> 00:51:50.260
I kept waiting for the ball to drop.
00:51:50.360 --> 00:51:57.020
I kept waiting for the PTSD to hit. I kept waiting for my just world to get rocked by something.
00:51:57.220 --> 00:52:01.760
And it never happened. It never happened. I walked out and the transition was
00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:05.280
as smooth as anyone could have ever asked for.
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:10.260
My brother probably paid me what has to date been one of the largest compliments I've received.
00:52:10.480 --> 00:52:14.660
He said it was like two days after I got out and he was talking about the first day.
00:52:14.780 --> 00:52:18.520
He said, it was really interesting watching you kind of navigate that first
00:52:18.520 --> 00:52:20.120
day. It was almost like you never left.
00:52:20.240 --> 00:52:24.100
And to go into prison, I mean, the people that work in the prisons will tell
00:52:24.100 --> 00:52:26.440
you that they are quickly institutionalized.
00:52:26.997 --> 00:52:29.997
And that their ability to navigate the outside world changes.
00:52:30.117 --> 00:52:33.997
In fact, my now father-in-law works in the federal correction system.
00:52:34.237 --> 00:52:38.477
And he'll tell you that he is institutionalized, that he does not like people,
00:52:38.617 --> 00:52:40.177
that he kind of is a recluse.
00:52:40.457 --> 00:52:44.257
And so, I mean, for me to have been there, not even getting to go home every
00:52:44.257 --> 00:52:48.197
day, but just there for 12 years straight, never seeing the outside of those
00:52:48.197 --> 00:52:53.797
fences, man, Kevin, I just can't explain the amount of grace that I feel was conferred to me in that.
00:52:53.877 --> 00:52:59.517
And as I recalled back on my time of incarceration, I thought of a few things.
00:52:59.537 --> 00:53:02.217
And I thought of how many times I had been in trouble.
00:53:02.257 --> 00:53:04.577
And you think, well, what do you mean trouble? I thought you were doing all these good things.
00:53:04.697 --> 00:53:07.737
Well, you think back on the time that the Christmas service happened.
00:53:07.777 --> 00:53:09.957
And that wasn't the only time something like that happened.
00:53:10.237 --> 00:53:13.837
If I looked back every time that I got in quote unquote trouble,
00:53:14.077 --> 00:53:17.157
it all centered around the same basic idea.
00:53:17.337 --> 00:53:21.857
And that idea could be summarized by one of the counselors who particularly
00:53:21.857 --> 00:53:25.557
did not like me, where she constantly kept telling me, John,
00:53:25.697 --> 00:53:27.657
you need to understand your place.
00:53:27.977 --> 00:53:32.537
You need to remember what color you're wearing. You need to remember you're an inmate.
00:53:32.637 --> 00:53:35.177
Because I was doing a lot of things that inmates wouldn't do.
00:53:35.257 --> 00:53:37.537
I was running programs and I was working with administration.
00:53:37.657 --> 00:53:42.797
And so I would just try to help. And often that helpfulness would be either
00:53:42.797 --> 00:53:46.177
misunderstood, but more often not misunderstood, just disliked.
00:53:46.177 --> 00:53:50.137
Just how dare an inmate have the the right to, to do that.
00:53:50.277 --> 00:53:54.077
And that happens enough. And it did, it happened quite a few times where you
00:53:54.077 --> 00:53:55.757
begin to question yourself, or at least I did.
00:53:55.837 --> 00:53:58.477
I started to question, Hey, man, am I the one that's in the wrong?
00:53:58.517 --> 00:54:01.357
Like I'm trying to help. I'm trying to serve. I'm trying to be humble,
00:54:01.417 --> 00:54:03.637
but man, maybe, maybe I'm the problem.
00:54:03.937 --> 00:54:07.437
Maybe the issue is not anybody else. Maybe, maybe it's me.
00:54:07.797 --> 00:54:12.597
And, uh, I really struggled with that for the last like year or so of my incarceration.
00:54:12.917 --> 00:54:18.817
But when I got out and the transition was so seamless, it occurred to me that
00:54:18.817 --> 00:54:21.637
the problem was not that I did not know my place.
00:54:21.737 --> 00:54:24.437
The problem was that my place was not in there.
00:54:25.044 --> 00:54:31.224
And so when I got back out here and I was back in a world that I fit in much
00:54:31.224 --> 00:54:36.304
better with, I was able to step into that role of a contributing member of the community.
00:54:36.444 --> 00:54:40.024
I was able to join with a church. I was able to serve in that church.
00:54:40.144 --> 00:54:43.564
I was able to take a good job. I was able to add value. you.
00:54:43.724 --> 00:54:50.644
And I am extremely thankful for the opportunities that I've had to engage that
00:54:50.644 --> 00:54:55.264
same level of grace and that same heart for service in this outside community
00:54:55.264 --> 00:54:58.244
as I was able to do inside. Yeah, absolutely.
00:54:59.104 --> 00:55:03.444
Now, you were put under probation for two years?
00:55:03.964 --> 00:55:08.624
Not probation. Probation is administered by the county. This was administered by the state.
00:55:08.844 --> 00:55:12.344
Used to it have been called parole, but they've done away with the term parole
00:55:12.344 --> 00:55:14.084
and it's now called community supervision.
00:55:14.404 --> 00:55:18.484
For those that don't know any difference, you can call it probation or whatever,
00:55:18.684 --> 00:55:22.084
but technically it's administered by the state and parole or community supervision
00:55:22.084 --> 00:55:25.584
is usually much easier than probation.
00:55:25.784 --> 00:55:29.984
Probation usually has classes that you have to attend and often you have to
00:55:29.984 --> 00:55:31.764
pay for various aspects of it.
00:55:31.944 --> 00:55:36.004
In my case, I only had to pay. I had to pay, I think it was like $65 a month.
00:55:36.244 --> 00:55:38.684
Then of course I needed to finish paying off my restitution,
00:55:38.844 --> 00:55:41.144
which I was able to do within a month or two of getting out of prison.
00:55:41.144 --> 00:55:43.124
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Perfect.
00:55:43.544 --> 00:55:47.004
So you're out of prison.
00:55:47.144 --> 00:55:54.684
You talk about this kind of seamless transition back into quote unquote real life.
00:55:55.535 --> 00:56:00.115
So where does life go? Did you have a plan or not?
00:56:00.455 --> 00:56:04.215
I definitely had a plan, but it was a loose plan because I recognized that I
00:56:04.215 --> 00:56:05.195
didn't know what I didn't know.
00:56:05.395 --> 00:56:09.235
My plan was to spend the first month basically being present,
00:56:09.395 --> 00:56:14.415
spending time with family and friends, experiencing things, not trying to rush
00:56:14.415 --> 00:56:18.875
things, but also keeping an eye out for where I might be able to add value in terms of work.
00:56:19.455 --> 00:56:22.255
During that month, my brother, the same brother that was very,
00:56:22.315 --> 00:56:26.075
very supportive and encouraging, had actually spoken with his employer.
00:56:26.175 --> 00:56:29.995
And he wasn't trying to get me a job. What he was trying to do was actually buy me some time.
00:56:30.275 --> 00:56:35.075
He had basically said, hey, as you guys all know, I've got a lot of projects I'm working on.
00:56:35.135 --> 00:56:40.235
I would like to bring my brother on in a contractor role to help me finish some of these things up.
00:56:40.295 --> 00:56:43.275
That'll give him a little bit of income, and it'll give him an opportunity to
00:56:43.275 --> 00:56:47.495
figure out where he wants to go, what value he wants to add, etc.
00:56:48.115 --> 00:56:51.835
Apparently, I wasn't a part of those conversations, but apparently there was some apprehension.
00:56:51.915 --> 00:56:55.555
Some other people were brought into the conversation and it was determined that
00:56:55.555 --> 00:56:59.555
while they were okay with bringing me on as a contractor, they did not want
00:56:59.555 --> 00:57:01.335
him to be the one supervising.
00:57:01.475 --> 00:57:06.075
They wanted to avoid any form of whatever it's called when family members hire family members.
00:57:06.235 --> 00:57:09.075
They wanted to avoid that. And so they ended up saying, hey,
00:57:09.115 --> 00:57:10.695
we've been working on some training material.
00:57:10.875 --> 00:57:14.095
It sounds like John's done a lot of curriculum development and stuff with what
00:57:14.095 --> 00:57:16.135
you're telling us about the work he's done in the prisons.
00:57:16.435 --> 00:57:19.875
So why don't we bring him on to develop our next training course?
00:57:20.255 --> 00:57:23.515
So he asked me, you know, Hey, what do you think about this?
00:57:23.595 --> 00:57:26.475
And I said, yeah, I'd be open to doing some training material for them.
00:57:26.515 --> 00:57:30.675
And so I did a little interview, met with the director of operations and I don't
00:57:30.675 --> 00:57:32.515
remember who I was on. I know the director of ops was there,
00:57:32.555 --> 00:57:34.455
but I want to say it doesn't matter.
00:57:34.695 --> 00:57:39.095
Several people on the interview and they decided to bring me on as a contractor
00:57:39.095 --> 00:57:41.235
at an hourly invoice rate.
00:57:41.795 --> 00:57:45.315
And so So I came on, started working for them, working on some things.
00:57:45.395 --> 00:57:47.975
It wasn't very long before they actually asked me to come to Atlanta,
00:57:48.275 --> 00:57:50.275
which was where their office was.
00:57:50.615 --> 00:57:54.235
And I'd only been out of prison at this point, I want to say four weeks.
00:57:54.435 --> 00:57:57.055
And that is not much time.
00:57:57.335 --> 00:58:01.135
It's very, very uncommon for them to allow you to leave the state and sometimes
00:58:01.135 --> 00:58:05.595
not even the county for at least 90, if not 180 days after you get out.
00:58:05.695 --> 00:58:07.735
And sometimes they just say, no, they won't allow you to do it until you're
00:58:07.735 --> 00:58:09.775
off of supervision altogether. together.
00:58:09.795 --> 00:58:13.595
In this case, for reasons, again, unknown to me, they did require a letter from
00:58:13.595 --> 00:58:17.575
the employer, but they did allow me to go to Atlanta within a month of getting out of prison.
00:58:17.855 --> 00:58:21.315
And while I was there, the director of ops called me into his office and said,
00:58:21.475 --> 00:58:25.455
I see what you're capable of. You're doing great work. What am I going to have to do to keep you?
00:58:26.170 --> 00:58:31.730
And we talked about some strategy, we talked about some things and so forth.
00:58:31.950 --> 00:58:36.230
And to kind of summarize that whole scenario, two months into my three-month
00:58:36.230 --> 00:58:40.730
contract, I was presented with an official job offer to take responsibility
00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:43.150
for their entire training department there at the company.
00:58:43.290 --> 00:58:47.810
I served in that role for two and a half years before being asked to take the
00:58:47.810 --> 00:58:49.950
director of revenue role for the organization.
00:58:50.330 --> 00:58:54.370
And currently, I'm still functioning in that director of revenue role while
00:58:54.370 --> 00:58:57.870
also working to start my own business, doing something completely different.
00:58:58.310 --> 00:59:01.550
And so that's kind of the work side of it.
00:59:01.670 --> 00:59:06.470
Meanwhile, I had probably 10 years before I got out.
00:59:06.530 --> 00:59:10.910
So a couple of years into my sentence, I had begun listening to CDs from a church
00:59:10.910 --> 00:59:16.190
in the Phoenix area that I felt aligned with a lot of the values that I felt,
00:59:16.310 --> 00:59:19.330
I guess, matched with mine and I thought
00:59:19.330 --> 00:59:22.570
hopefully matched with the bibles and so i went there as
00:59:22.570 --> 00:59:25.370
uh as you know to kind of get to know the place i went i visited
00:59:25.370 --> 00:59:28.170
a lot of churches but not so much to visit to go but to go
00:59:28.170 --> 00:59:31.590
worship with people that i had met and had grown close to and
00:59:31.590 --> 00:59:36.170
then had the opportunity to join with palmcroft church in the phoenix area where
00:59:36.170 --> 00:59:40.610
i served for almost three years within a matter of months of getting out i was
00:59:40.610 --> 00:59:44.750
asked to start to help lead the college and career ministry so the 18 to 25
00:59:44.750 --> 00:59:50.110
year old age group and And was privileged to be able to serve that group of students for,
00:59:50.270 --> 00:59:53.830
like I said, almost three years before we moved to South Carolina.
00:59:54.370 --> 00:59:58.150
Yeah. Wow, wow, wow, wow. So powerful.
00:59:58.770 --> 01:00:03.350
When you look back on it all from kind of where you sit today.
01:00:04.709 --> 01:00:10.869
Do you feel like knowing what you know now, do you feel like you would have
01:00:10.869 --> 01:00:16.329
changed it when you have rewritten the story to not have gone to prison?
01:00:16.409 --> 01:00:19.969
Do you think you would be the man that you are today, be where you are today,
01:00:20.109 --> 01:00:22.689
if you had not gone through that?
01:00:23.009 --> 01:00:26.289
It's an interesting question, right? I've heard people say, you know,
01:00:26.289 --> 01:00:29.029
I have no regrets because if I hadn't gone through what I've gone through,
01:00:29.189 --> 01:00:30.549
then I wouldn't be the person I am today.
01:00:30.949 --> 01:00:35.429
And I understand the sentiments behind them. I don't personally carry that view.
01:00:35.629 --> 01:00:40.509
I think that it's absolutely horrendous that with the upbringing I had,
01:00:40.689 --> 01:00:46.209
the wisdom God gave me inherently, as well as just kind of the skill set and
01:00:46.209 --> 01:00:53.609
other things that I placed myself in a position to need prison for 12 years
01:00:53.609 --> 01:00:54.909
to knock some sense into me.
01:00:54.909 --> 01:00:59.089
And I think that God gave me all the tools that I needed to be in the place
01:00:59.089 --> 01:01:01.009
I'm in now without going through that.
01:01:01.189 --> 01:01:05.069
But because I was too stubborn and too egotistical, he said,
01:01:05.129 --> 01:01:08.269
okay, I'll do what I got to do. I'm going to make sure that you operate in your purpose.
01:01:08.409 --> 01:01:11.209
And if you're not going to get on board, I will get you on board.
01:01:11.329 --> 01:01:15.769
And so I have a hard time saying I don't have any regrets because my actions
01:01:15.769 --> 01:01:17.289
hurt so many people, Kevin.
01:01:17.589 --> 01:01:21.629
Not only did my best friend die, but his family, of course, was devastated.
01:01:22.049 --> 01:01:25.869
All of the members of the business were harmed. But, you know,
01:01:25.869 --> 01:01:30.389
I mentioned the 500 students and there are some that I've had the opportunity to reconnect with.
01:01:30.489 --> 01:01:34.989
And some of those students, you know, are very understanding, very forgiving.
01:01:35.229 --> 01:01:38.469
But there are young men and young ladies out there right now who are in their
01:01:38.469 --> 01:01:42.849
early 20s, who I was their martial arts instructor or I was their soccer coach
01:01:42.849 --> 01:01:44.109
because I did both for the company.
01:01:44.349 --> 01:01:48.009
And their entire life has been jaded by.
01:01:48.532 --> 01:01:53.312
By somebody they trusted, somebody they looked up to, somebody that they thought
01:01:53.312 --> 01:01:56.412
was a good guy making the decision I made.
01:01:57.032 --> 01:02:05.212
And I can't say that my growth journey is worth what I've put those individuals through.
01:02:05.392 --> 01:02:12.792
And so I really desperately wish that I could have acknowledged these principles,
01:02:13.292 --> 01:02:16.932
these things that I was taught, these things that if nothing else,
01:02:16.932 --> 01:02:21.312
I mean, there's so many things that I just somehow knew, and I can't explain how.
01:02:21.452 --> 01:02:26.992
Surely I could have somehow known these things and recognize these truths without
01:02:26.992 --> 01:02:31.312
needing to cause such devastation by my choices.
01:02:31.712 --> 01:02:35.032
And so, yes, I would absolutely rewrite the story.
01:02:35.252 --> 01:02:40.512
I'm thankful for how it's been redeemed. I say often that God has the uncanny
01:02:40.512 --> 01:02:43.352
ability to take our stupidity and turn it into something great.
01:02:43.352 --> 01:02:48.312
And I am deeply thankful that my stupidity has been turned into a redemption
01:02:48.312 --> 01:02:51.152
story and I love getting to share that story.
01:02:51.292 --> 01:02:55.652
I have a whole presentation that I love to give that's a lot more streamlined
01:02:55.652 --> 01:02:59.172
than this conversation because it usually needs to be given in about 30 minutes
01:02:59.172 --> 01:03:03.452
and I love being able to encourage people and to be able to share it,
01:03:03.992 --> 01:03:09.632
but I sure tell you what, I really wish that I could have experienced the growth
01:03:09.972 --> 01:03:15.392
that God's grace gave without causing the devastation that led me there. Yeah.
01:03:15.492 --> 01:03:20.552
I just want to acknowledge the fact that that was the most heartfelt.
01:03:21.750 --> 01:03:27.050
Most honest answer to that question that I could have ever expected you to answer it with.
01:03:27.710 --> 01:03:33.750
And I feel as though that speaks so highly of just the person who you are.
01:03:34.370 --> 01:03:36.330
Thanks, Kevin. Yeah, absolutely.
01:03:37.170 --> 01:03:43.270
So would you mind sharing kind of what your ideas, your hopes,
01:03:43.390 --> 01:03:47.550
your dreams, what you're working on today and for the future? Yeah.
01:03:47.630 --> 01:03:53.510
So part of my responsibilities as the training manager were to empower the leaders of the organization.
01:03:53.750 --> 01:03:57.910
And I realized in the midst of working on some materials for them that I just
01:03:57.910 --> 01:04:03.210
have an incredible passion for empowering leaders and providing tools specifically
01:04:03.210 --> 01:04:05.430
to what I call the forgotten leaders,
01:04:05.690 --> 01:04:08.770
which tend to be those frontline leaders, the middle managers,
01:04:08.930 --> 01:04:14.010
the people that have a ton of responsibility, but no real actual education on how to deal with it.
01:04:14.010 --> 01:04:18.310
And who are usually the ones either making people's lives miserable or making
01:04:18.310 --> 01:04:20.110
a place an enjoyable place to work.
01:04:20.350 --> 01:04:23.470
And so I've started a company called SML Consultive.
01:04:23.730 --> 01:04:28.270
SML stands for servant-minded leadership, where we seek to empower those frontline
01:04:28.270 --> 01:04:33.450
leaders to effectively engage with their teams and hopefully improve the employee
01:04:33.450 --> 01:04:37.830
retention and engagement of organizations while also improving customer satisfaction.
01:04:38.350 --> 01:04:43.190
I'm really passionate about that. I got a YouTube channel that I put little videos out about.
01:04:43.370 --> 01:04:46.390
And I've just had a blast trying to get this started.
01:04:46.410 --> 01:04:52.150
Still in the infant stages, still actively looking for clients that I can serve.
01:04:52.270 --> 01:04:55.310
I know there's a need. I know that I have some value to offer.
01:04:55.490 --> 01:05:00.130
But of course, branding and getting oneself out there is always a journey.
01:05:00.250 --> 01:05:04.290
So that's something that I'm working on really diligently right now.
01:05:04.310 --> 01:05:08.590
And in my spare hours, I'm still working full-time as the Director of Revenue.
01:05:08.590 --> 01:05:13.290
And so I'm trying to be a person of integrity with that while giving them the
01:05:13.290 --> 01:05:18.590
full time that they are paying me for, while also giving my business its due
01:05:18.590 --> 01:05:20.730
needs because a business doesn't start itself.
01:05:21.462 --> 01:05:24.842
And so working very, very diligently on that, I'm now married.
01:05:24.942 --> 01:05:28.942
And so I have the privilege of being married to a wonderful woman who is just
01:05:28.942 --> 01:05:33.742
incredibly talented and beautiful and brings so much life to our home.
01:05:33.862 --> 01:05:38.942
And so wanting to make sure that I'm faithful to serve her and make sure that
01:05:38.942 --> 01:05:43.622
I'm upholding all of the responsibilities that come with that life commitment to marriage.
01:05:43.802 --> 01:05:47.122
And we just moved a couple of months ago. So we're currently in the process
01:05:47.122 --> 01:05:51.402
of finding a new place to serve in a local church setting.
01:05:51.542 --> 01:05:56.142
And we're working diligently to make sure that we're not church shopping from
01:05:56.142 --> 01:06:00.662
the perspective of what can we get, but rather visit places to ask,
01:06:00.762 --> 01:06:02.262
where is God calling us to serve?
01:06:02.502 --> 01:06:06.322
And so we're looking forward to the next opportunity that God has for us to
01:06:06.322 --> 01:06:10.542
hopefully participate in what he's doing locally here in the Greer,
01:06:10.542 --> 01:06:12.142
Greenville, South Carolina area.
01:06:12.142 --> 01:06:15.722
And as a part of that, I was actually just thinking the other day,
01:06:15.762 --> 01:06:18.782
I posted on some Facebook groups because I realized when I was in Phoenix,
01:06:18.922 --> 01:06:22.442
I got to share my testimony with several churches and several groups.
01:06:22.542 --> 01:06:24.142
And I said, I got a whole presentation.
01:06:24.382 --> 01:06:28.142
So I'm looking to see if there's maybe an opportunity to be a blessing by sharing
01:06:28.142 --> 01:06:32.722
my story of redemption and how God has worked through my stupidity to some of
01:06:32.722 --> 01:06:34.162
the groups that are here.
01:06:34.162 --> 01:06:39.862
Here and anybody else that wants me to do so, I'd be thrilled to hopefully be
01:06:39.862 --> 01:06:44.062
a blessing and share what God can do no matter how badly we foul it up.
01:06:44.402 --> 01:06:48.022
Yeah. Well, I hope and pray that.
01:06:48.667 --> 01:06:54.907
This podcast can do some degree in helping you to share your story, to share your message.
01:06:55.027 --> 01:06:58.827
I'm going to be sure for anybody who's interested in connecting with you,
01:06:58.867 --> 01:07:02.787
I'm going to be sure that all of your links, information are all inside of today's
01:07:02.787 --> 01:07:04.307
show notes for easy access.
01:07:04.927 --> 01:07:08.727
Man, you've got a powerful story. You're a powerful guy.
01:07:09.427 --> 01:07:14.807
I'm so glad, grateful that things are going good.
01:07:14.807 --> 01:07:17.647
Good that yeah that you took a bad
01:07:17.647 --> 01:07:21.027
situation you flipped it on its head and
01:07:21.027 --> 01:07:24.227
you've made good come out of it and i think
01:07:24.227 --> 01:07:29.127
that's one of the most powerful things that any of us can do and so thank you
01:07:29.127 --> 01:07:33.707
so much for sharing it with with us today oh man it's been an absolute pleasure
01:07:33.707 --> 01:07:39.387
kevin i love your heart i love your energy and uh it's been just a great honor
01:07:39.387 --> 01:07:41.927
to spend this last few few minutes with you. Yeah.
01:07:42.047 --> 01:07:49.267
Thank you. Thank you. And for you, my friend, my hope as always is that you
01:07:49.267 --> 01:07:51.187
didn't just enjoy today's episode,
01:07:51.347 --> 01:07:56.727
but that it impacts your life somehow, some way, something that John said today,
01:07:56.847 --> 01:08:02.627
maybe it resonates with you, or maybe you think of a friend who you really think
01:08:02.627 --> 01:08:04.427
could use to hear this message today.
01:08:04.687 --> 01:08:11.047
It's a story of redemption, a story of hope, a story of our challenges turned
01:08:11.047 --> 01:08:16.187
into triumphs. It's the craziness of life. It's a powerful conversation.
01:08:16.807 --> 01:08:20.367
And I am so grateful that you were here to hear it today.
01:08:20.727 --> 01:08:25.507
My name is Kevin Lowe. This is Grit, Grace and Inspiration. Get out there and enjoy.
01:08:26.000 --> 01:08:45.9
Listen On
Also Listen
-
#340: 3 Words Will Transform Your Life: A Powerful Mindset Shift to Let Go of the Past
What if three simple words could free you from your deepest grudges and transfor -
#339: Letters of Hope from Otto Frank: How Ann Frank's Father Inspired Hope in a New Generation
Did you ever read The Diary of Ann Frank? Today we take a look at this story, bu -
#338: Navigating Life’s Toughest Days: 5 Powerful Ways to Manage Traumatic Anniversaries with Grace
Is there a particular anniversary that is especially hard on you? In today’s dee -
#337: Ditch the Comparison Trap: Discover 3 Strategies to Turn Comparison into Inspiration
DO you ever find yourself endlessly scrolling through Facebook or Instagram, and
Comments & Upvotes