Show Transcript

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How many terrorist attacks have you survived? What about breast cancer?

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What about being poisoned by anthrax?

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I'm hoping that you said no to all of the above.

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But for today's guest, Dr. Nina Cerfolio, she can check off each of those.

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You can basically say that this woman is about to present you with a masterclass in resilience.

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I welcome you to episode 274.

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What's up, my friend, and welcome to Grit, Grace, and Inspiration.

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I am your host, Kevin Lowe. 20 years ago, I awoke from a life-saving surgery

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only to find that I was left completely blind.

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And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.

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And here on this podcast, I want to share those insights with you.

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Because, friend, if you are still searching for your purpose,

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still trying to understand why or still left searching for that next right path to take,

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we'll consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from where you are to where you want to be.

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It's time that you start sleeping like a baby too.

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I'm a psychiatrist and I am actually a mass shooting terrorist trauma expert.

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So early in childhood, I think I always was interested in understanding myself

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and other people and what made them do the things they did.

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So I always think I was very psychologically minded and motivated in terms of

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understanding human behavior.

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But more recently in my adulthood, I survived two terrorist attacks.

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One was I was a first responder down to 9-11.

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I made a conscious decision to go down there and to help survivors.

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And what it turned out being was helping other first responders and family members

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that had somehow gotten down there. You know, they had lost loved ones.

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And then as a consequence of

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being a first responder, I developed breast cancer and had a mastectomy.

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And continue to be a patient as a breast cancer patient under guidance of a

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great, great oncologist, actually. I'm very blessed.

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And then in 2005, I chose to go into the second Chechen war and genocide.

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So just to give a brief background of Chechnya, because people often don't know

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where it is or its history, which is very complicated, but Chechnya is a part of Russia.

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It's in the North Caucasus, which has the tallest Mount Elbrus is the tallest

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mountain range in Europe.

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And it's very rich with oils and minerals.

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And the Chechens have been trying to be independent from Russia since Catherine the Great.

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And they're often portrayed by Russians as being terrorists,

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even though, in my experience, they're Muslim and there are these farmers who

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are loving and would give you the shirt off their back.

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They're just the most loving, loyal people.

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And I chose to go into the Second Chechen War.

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So Putin had waged war with Chechnya in the early 90s, and this is what brought him into power.

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And there was an incident called the apartment building bombings in Russia,

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where in seven cities, apartment buildings were demolished by bombs that were planted.

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Hundreds were killed, thousands were injured.

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And Putin blamed these bombings on the Chechens.

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And it turned out that Putin actually was the KGB was the one who planted them.

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I don't know if you remember Alexander Leventenko, but he was the defected KGB

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agent who went to London and was killed by radioactive iodine.

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And he basically came forth and said that he and others were the ones that,

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as a KGB agent, planted bombs, which was blamed on Chechens.

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And also, there was the last apartment bombing.

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There were people that were community members that were being hyper-vigilant

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and checking for bombs at this point.

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And these community members found bombs underneath an apartment building.

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Building, they were found to

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only have been, the materials could only have been put there by the KGB.

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They obviously disassembled them. And then Putin said that this was an exercise

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that the KGB were practicing.

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But it's a long story and it's very complicated.

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But to make it short, he went into Chechnya and started bombing civilians and

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killed probably over 200,000 civilians.

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And I chose to go there at the time in 2005.

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It was the most dangerous place on earth. It was largely internationally ignored.

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And America actually joined forces with Putin in the war against terrorism.

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So as a consequence of that war, he's just continued on because there was no

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protest really by the West or by the world.

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And he did the same thing in Syria and Georgia and now in Ukraine.

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Although the world has, at least for a moment, seemingly woke up with Ukraine

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and the West has given a lot of money for ammunition and backing for Ukraine.

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So that is at least good. But when I was in Chechnya, it was a total genocide.

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It was it was Gaza Strip times 100.

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Yeah. Wow. So so back up a ways for me, though, back to 9-11 was this this first big event.

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And so my understanding when you talked about with your your career as a psychiatrist,

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you were really in the field of dealing with this type of situation, if I'm not mistaken.

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Yes. So I had been in academic medicine. I ran the psychiatric emergency room

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and walk in clinic. So for about five years, I taught residents and medical students.

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So I always was really in the trenches and dealing with people that had been

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arrested or murderers or psychotic people often that didn't get proper psychiatric

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treatment that then became violent.

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Yes. So although I've always had a private practice as well,

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but my expertise is in trauma.

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Yes. Yeah. So I'm curious, when 9-11 happened, would you mind sharing with me

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a little bit about that story as far as your experience?

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Where were you and what you were able to do?

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Yes, I would love to. So the day of 9-11, I'll never forget it.

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There wasn't a cloud in the sky in Manhattan.

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I was walking to see a patient.

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At 8 a.m., the first tower was already hit and on fire.

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And there were rumors that there was a plane, like a small plane that went in,

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but it was like an accident.

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And I'll never forget, my patient said, this was a terrorist attack.

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And then throughout the day, most of my patients canceled because public transport

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was stopped. So they couldn't get to me.

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A few of my patients I did see on that day. And we shared the trauma together.

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Other, but I was literally in the street in front of my office.

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So my office was on University Place and that's about a mile away from the towers.

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And I was an elite endurance athlete at the time. I was running marathons.

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I ran my first marathon in 2001.

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So my training route actually was to run down the West side highway,

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past the towers, the tip of Manhattan to the East side and back.

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It was about a 10-mile loop.

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And the towers really, for me, were a symbol of resilience and strength.

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They had been bombed earlier in, I think, in 1993.

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And they withstood that bombing. A bomb was placed in the parking lot.

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But to me, they were also my running companions. I always looked to them in

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terms of getting a sense of direction. And they always seemed to instill energy

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in me when I was really tired from a full day of patience.

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So I saw the towers, both the towers come down when I was standing on University

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Place, which was a suite in front of my office. I...

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Saw people walking away from the towers covered in dust.

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They looked like ghosts. They were in shock. I witnessed people were trying

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to get news what was going on.

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You couldn't really get a dial

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on your cell phone because it was so overwhelmed with all the calling.

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So people were trying to call loved ones. They couldn't get through.

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So people were listening on the radios for news as is what had happened.

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And then we learned that there was also the attack on our, on our Capitol in DC.

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And it was, I can't even really put it in words.

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It was a horror film, you know, to see the towers come down.

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And literally there were a hundred people gathered on the street and we all

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collectively gasped. Like we all couldn't believe what we saw.

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It was really mind boggling because I never thought the towers would come,

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come to like, they literally came down like pancakes, floor by floor,

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like they enveloped, enveloped inwards.

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And the next day I decided that because a lot of my patients also had canceled

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because they couldn't come to me, I decided that I would go down and help people.

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So I packed a lunch, I packed water, also extra water for people,

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blankets for people that needed them, and put on my work boots and went down

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there and And getting down there, I had to cross several checkpoints.

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And really, the only time I processed any fear was after I passed a checkpoint in Soho.

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And initially, the police didn't want to believe I was dead.

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A doctor at the time I was in my forties and I looked very young and I had to

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prove to them that I was a doctor.

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So they let me through and Soho was a ghost town there. You could literally hear a pin drop.

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I've never heard New York city. So quiet. It was quiet after Trump won, but not like this.

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This was like a vacuum of silence.

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And a voice said to me, you know, turn around and run because everyone had left Soho.

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Most people had evacuated. But I continued down and then I started moving debris.

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It was unrecognizable down there.

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It was fires going on and stacks of debris, like 10, 12 stories high.

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There was ash raining. I don't even remember the color of the the ash.

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There was a toxic, noxious smell to your eyes, to your skin.

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It was hard to breathe down there. Someone handed me work gloves and a surgical mask.

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And just spontaneously, the people that had gone down there formed a bucket

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brigade and started moving debris along the line.

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We handed it off to the next person in an attempt to look for victims under all the debris.

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And then And eventually, I was down there the first day for about 16 hours.

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And there was a medical triage unit that was just spontaneously formed with other doctors.

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I was the only psychiatrist that went down there then.

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And we helped provide medical and psychiatric aid to people.

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I dealt with a construction worker who was having anxiety because he had built

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the World Trade Center and then he had gone down with his crane and couldn't find any survivors.

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He was having extreme anxiety. And actually, somehow we had medication there.

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I was able to give him some Ativan.

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And to talk to him for a while. And eventually he was able to go back and go

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back to work to look for survivors.

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I also was asked to see family members who were disturbing the rescue process.

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They were insisting that their loved one, they had last spoken to them at a

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certain point under the World Trade Center and they wanted rescuers to go look for them.

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So I had to work with them to try to support them so that they would be better

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able to really accept that most likely they weren't going to find their loved

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one at this point, which they didn't.

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Other like firemen getting them medical help as well.

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So yeah, it was really a radically unifying experience of all these first responders

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who came together to help our brothers and sisters.

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And we really rose rose above the horror, the devastation, the death,

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the loss, the injury, the sorrow, and,

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And it was, for me, a very spiritual experience.

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Yeah, absolutely. One question that I am wondering about is,

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here you are, a psychiatrist, you're there to help others.

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Was there a moment in time, whether down at ground zero or maybe back at home

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when you broke down yourself?

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That's a great question. So I was brought up to not show any emotion, to super perform.

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I was expected to be a good little Catholic girl, not express my feelings,

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but super perform in sports.

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And luckily, I was a natural athlete. A lot of people in my family are natural athletes,

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but I was expected to super perform at sports, often not being given the proper

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tools to do so as well, but to rise above that. and at school as well.

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It's sort of my parents' motto was, you know, we're going to break you down,

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but then they never really built us back up.

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Kind of like in the military, they break you down, but then they build you back up.

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My parents would break us down, but not really build us back up.

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So I was a person that grew up, it's called counterphobia in psychiatry,

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which is where where you go into your fears and you overcome them.

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So because I felt unseen, unloved, unworthy in my childhood.

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I felt that I needed to constantly super perform or super achieve to overcome those feelings.

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So to answer your question, no, I never really had a breakdown or processed or cried.

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What I did have was recurrent nightmares of planes flying into buildings,

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buildings collapsing, collapsing, people jumping out of burning buildings.

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These things, I did have recurrent nightmares, but I never had a breakdown or...

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Cried or processed my sorrow there.

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I mean, I have subsequently, I think, in my own therapy, but not like,

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I know some people that went down there who were psychologists started having

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a breakdown there. They couldn't process and they had to leave.

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I very much was brought up, up, so to speak, in an emotional war.

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So going into a war for me was a reflex.

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It was something that I knew too well.

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So it wasn't unfamiliar to me at all. It was how I was brought up.

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So no, no, to answer your question, no.

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Other than with flashbacks and nightmares, yes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

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Understandable. My other question is, is did you find yourself in the years

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after 9-11 working with a lot of people who were directly impacted by the terrorist

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attacks, whether by losing a loved one or were they or themselves? himself?

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Absolutely. I had many patients that worked down there.

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I had a lovely female patient who had just gotten married.

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She didn't like New York City, who hated working in the World Trade Center buildings.

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She was trapped in the second building and was told to stay at her desk.

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And luckily she didn't listen.

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She hated the World Trade Building. She found them really claustrophobic and hated working in them.

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And luckily, she didn't listen to what she was told and her and her co-workers

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left and narrowly escaped the second building collapsing.

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And then I also had patients who lost their father who worked for...

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So Cantor Fitzgerald was a Wall Street investment firm and it was impacted.

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The first plane literally flew into the floor that the Cantor Fitzgerald was on.

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So no one was ever found from that firm who worked there on that day.

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My patient's father, they never found his body.

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And I worked with her for many, many years. And 12 years after 9-11.

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They found a humerus on top, like the bone in the arm, the humerus,

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on top of a building, A high storied building in Manhattan downtown.

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And it turned out to be her father's bone, like DNA.

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So, you know, most people that lost loved ones down there did not receive a

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body or a bone or anything.

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Any remnants of their loved ones. Yes, I had many patients that either were

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down there that escaped,

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that lost loved ones or that worked down there and were just so traumatized by the whole event.

00:19:32.261 --> 00:19:34.381

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:34.801 --> 00:19:41.001

My last question with direct, you know, related to 9-11 is, is I know that a

00:19:41.001 --> 00:19:44.961

lot of people in the years after had medical issues.

00:19:45.561 --> 00:19:51.261

Did you experience anything yourself? Yeah. So I have difficulties breathing.

00:19:51.621 --> 00:19:56.541

I've been told that I developed asthma recently. And I wonder if it's not.

00:19:56.881 --> 00:20:01.701

I know that several, many people have developed asthma from being down there.

00:20:01.761 --> 00:20:03.681

I guess I just don't even really want to know.

00:20:03.801 --> 00:20:08.761

I developed breast cancer as a result of being down there and my work down there

00:20:08.761 --> 00:20:17.161

in 2017. and I'm followed by the World Health Trade Center Insurance and they're wonderful actually.

00:20:17.381 --> 00:20:24.601

And they basically provide care to people who have 9-11 related diseases.

00:20:24.701 --> 00:20:29.401

Many people who have developed cancer like me from being a first responder down

00:20:29.401 --> 00:20:31.301

there and many people have died.

00:20:31.361 --> 00:20:34.981

So now there are many more people that have actually died from cancer related

00:20:34.981 --> 00:20:42.761

9-11 disorders than actual people who died during that horrible day on terrorists. Yes.

00:20:43.281 --> 00:20:48.421

Wow. Yeah. Yes. Wow, wow, wow. Isn't that almost hard to believe?

00:20:48.981 --> 00:20:55.481

It is. It's so hard to believe. And it's such a testament to how human spirit

00:20:55.481 --> 00:21:00.861

is so interconnected and beautiful that we're all so willing to,

00:21:00.921 --> 00:21:03.501

you know, firemen, policemen, doctors, contractors,

00:21:03.721 --> 00:21:09.561

construction workers, really put our own life on the line to go down there to

00:21:09.561 --> 00:21:14.621

help our brothers and sisters who were vulnerable and in a horrible situation and needed our help.

00:21:14.721 --> 00:21:19.721

It really is a testament to human kindness and love and interconnectedness.

00:21:20.021 --> 00:21:21.301

Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:22.281 --> 00:21:29.321

So my next Next question is, you go through this experience during 9-11.

00:21:29.761 --> 00:21:40.361

What then makes you want to go over to Russia, over out of the country to pursue other endeavors?

00:21:40.801 --> 00:21:45.581

I almost would feel like you might have been like, okay, it's time for me to play it safe.

00:21:45.961 --> 00:21:49.721

But you kept going. And so I'm kind of curious what led to that.

00:21:49.921 --> 00:21:54.041

That's a great question. So I think it would have been wise for me to process

00:21:54.041 --> 00:21:56.421

that or to think that, but at the time...

00:21:57.250 --> 00:22:03.650

I was an elite endurance athlete. I was actually winning some ultra marathons

00:22:03.650 --> 00:22:06.890

and, you know, overall, not just even in my age group.

00:22:07.010 --> 00:22:11.750

And I had won the half marathon on the China wall in Beijing.

00:22:12.030 --> 00:22:17.490

I had placed second overall of women in the Kurt Steiner.

00:22:17.810 --> 00:22:22.910

It's a 32 mile race. And that's, you know, normal marathon is 26.2.

00:22:22.970 --> 00:22:27.230

So this is longer than that. in Central Park, the woman that beat me was a pro

00:22:27.230 --> 00:22:29.350

when she was 10 years younger than me.

00:22:29.530 --> 00:22:39.430

So I was really running sort of in this invincible, macho, I call it the warrior queen.

00:22:41.690 --> 00:22:47.910

Which is very much, you know, that was my defense growing up because I really

00:22:47.910 --> 00:22:52.530

felt unseen, unworthy, unloved. And I felt like I had to super perform.

00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:58.510

And if I won a race, I was loved for like 10 seconds and then it would go away.

00:22:59.030 --> 00:23:06.330

So I very much was in this warrior queen mode where I was overcoming my fears

00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:11.430

with Ironman and ultra marathons and, and sometimes, you know,

00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:13.030

winning them or placing overall.

00:23:13.310 --> 00:23:17.750

And I always have identified with marginalized people.

00:23:17.830 --> 00:23:22.550

I felt I felt marginalized growing up. I always have been the champion of people

00:23:22.550 --> 00:23:25.570

that have been bullied or ostracized or marginalized.

00:23:26.210 --> 00:23:29.650

So I felt a calling to go to Chechnya.

00:23:29.750 --> 00:23:35.050

I went there with the man who started this disabled running track club.

00:23:35.735 --> 00:23:38.475

And I had worked with blind people.

00:23:38.755 --> 00:23:43.315

Actually, I led a blind climber to the summit of Mount Kilimanjaro.

00:23:43.755 --> 00:23:49.175

I had also led people in the New York City Marathon who were in wheelchairs.

00:23:49.175 --> 00:23:51.715

So I had done a lot of work with disabled people.

00:23:52.215 --> 00:23:56.895

And I felt a calling, not only to go to Chechnya to help people medically,

00:23:57.175 --> 00:24:01.615

psychologically, psychiatrically, but we also started a running club there for

00:24:01.615 --> 00:24:07.115

the disabled kids as well. Well, so for me, it was just reflex.

00:24:07.535 --> 00:24:10.735

You know, my family didn't want me to go. A lot of people said,

00:24:10.955 --> 00:24:12.995

why am I going to help terrorists?

00:24:13.255 --> 00:24:18.095

And then I eventually did work to bring three of the boys back to get medical

00:24:18.095 --> 00:24:21.815

care who had lost arms, legs, part of their penises blown off,

00:24:21.915 --> 00:24:27.575

horrible, horrible, horrible injuries as a result of being in the second Chechen War.

00:24:27.995 --> 00:24:30.915

I had people say to me, why are you bringing terrorists here?

00:24:31.095 --> 00:24:34.295

You know, they're not going to want to leave. And these, these were like salt

00:24:34.295 --> 00:24:38.855

of the earth, kind, simple, loving farm people.

00:24:39.035 --> 00:24:44.455

They all had farms and they came here and they got their medical care and they

00:24:44.455 --> 00:24:47.675

wanted to go back home and they were, they were not terrorists, you know?

00:24:47.695 --> 00:24:50.415

So for me, it's just, it was reflex.

00:24:50.715 --> 00:24:56.015

I know it's maybe hard to understand, but for me, it was just like going home.

00:24:56.015 --> 00:25:02.095

You know, going home to me was a war of avoiding where the next explosion was.

00:25:02.315 --> 00:25:08.575

And in Chechnya, it was no different. So for me, it was going home in a lot of ways.

00:25:09.015 --> 00:25:12.755

Yeah, yeah. Understandable. How long were you over there?

00:25:12.975 --> 00:25:18.855

So I was only there 10 days and we were constantly the only reason we got in

00:25:18.855 --> 00:25:21.015

was because a KGB agent was with us.

00:25:21.115 --> 00:25:28.035

He he was with us. He shadowed us the whole time. he basically hated me because

00:25:28.035 --> 00:25:32.875

I did care about the Chechens and I did provide medical and psychiatric and

00:25:32.875 --> 00:25:34.135

psychological care to them.

00:25:34.435 --> 00:25:39.895

And he poisoned me probably like the fifth day I was there.

00:25:40.055 --> 00:25:45.935

And I knew pretty much immediately as if I was my own emergency room patient

00:25:45.935 --> 00:25:47.195

that I had been poisoned.

00:25:47.515 --> 00:25:51.615

And given the severity of my symptoms, I was in bed for three days.

00:25:51.635 --> 00:25:53.295

If I I tried to get up out of bed. I fell.

00:25:53.535 --> 00:25:55.995

I never had falling issues or balance issues.

00:25:56.615 --> 00:26:01.315

I had projectile vomiting of blood and diarrhea with blood.

00:26:01.455 --> 00:26:07.715

I had really high fever. I couldn't eat for at least three days. I lost 10 pounds.

00:26:07.795 --> 00:26:13.675

And at that time, I was in incredible shape. I'm 5'6". Then I weighed 110 pounds.

00:26:13.875 --> 00:26:16.015

I got down to 100 pounds then.

00:26:16.255 --> 00:26:20.355

I almost died there. And there There was no international doctors.

00:26:20.695 --> 00:26:22.515

Doctors Without Borders had been there.

00:26:22.955 --> 00:26:27.335

And one of their female physicians had been kidnapped and killed. So they left.

00:26:27.675 --> 00:26:31.515

So I was the only help that was really there. You know, it was a genocide.

00:26:31.555 --> 00:26:33.535

People were just as sick as me.

00:26:34.961 --> 00:26:37.941

So I have to stop real quick and ask you.

00:26:38.081 --> 00:26:44.681

So you're saying the guy who was hired to help you was the same guy who poisoned you?

00:26:44.821 --> 00:26:46.901

Yeah. So, I mean, help, quote unquote.

00:26:47.301 --> 00:26:52.361

I mean. Yes. Yes. He wasn't there to help us. He basically stole all our money.

00:26:52.441 --> 00:26:56.621

I had brought $3,000 to give to the Chechens to try and help them.

00:26:56.841 --> 00:27:00.501

At one point, the person I was with started protecting him.

00:27:00.521 --> 00:27:04.901

He stole clothes that we brought for the Chechens. and then the person I was

00:27:04.901 --> 00:27:07.961

with started protecting our passports because that was the next that was going

00:27:07.961 --> 00:27:10.281

to go, but he wasn't there to protect us.

00:27:10.381 --> 00:27:13.021

So, I mean, this is the game that Putin plays, right?

00:27:13.881 --> 00:27:18.701

So the man that I was with has had a long relationship with this KGB agent and

00:27:18.701 --> 00:27:22.481

I didn't, I didn't know he was a KGB agent until I figured it out myself.

00:27:22.641 --> 00:27:26.621

So he, he was presented to me as a sports Reuters journalist,

00:27:26.881 --> 00:27:32.881

which is what he was, but he also was a KGB agent and they had a long long embedded

00:27:32.881 --> 00:27:35.801

relationship that I don't even know about.

00:27:35.941 --> 00:27:40.981

But I do know that the man that I went with to Chechnya, who was the head of

00:27:40.981 --> 00:27:44.621

this disabled running club, helped this person get into,

00:27:45.181 --> 00:27:49.721

college in America, Queens, helped him get housing in Coney Island and,

00:27:49.961 --> 00:27:54.981

you know, facilitated what I'm sure is spying on our country.

00:27:55.121 --> 00:27:58.081

I mean, this is what he did. He was a professional killer.

00:28:01.881 --> 00:28:06.781

I And I figured out really quickly because I've dealt with people that kill

00:28:06.781 --> 00:28:15.061

people and are sociopaths that this was a professional killer and he was not

00:28:15.061 --> 00:28:17.501

interested in our helping people.

00:28:17.681 --> 00:28:21.041

He was not interested in any of it.

00:28:21.121 --> 00:28:27.521

He was there really to supervise us and to make sure that we did,

00:28:27.641 --> 00:28:29.381

I think, as little as we could do.

00:28:29.541 --> 00:28:36.001

So it's complicated. It is very complicated, but no, he was there very much

00:28:36.001 --> 00:28:38.081

to try to minimize our impact.

00:28:38.561 --> 00:28:45.441

And one day we met this lovely Chechen deaf refugee who had started this school.

00:28:46.221 --> 00:28:52.661

She had literally a mud room. It was like a house built of mud and it was one room.

00:28:52.661 --> 00:28:59.981

And this KGB agent was with us when she served us tea and she was so proud that

00:28:59.981 --> 00:29:02.461

she had built the school for other deaf Chechen refugees.

00:29:02.981 --> 00:29:05.261

We started a race there.

00:29:06.181 --> 00:29:12.181

It was the first, what we believe is the first time Muslims ran against terrorism. Right.

00:29:12.663 --> 00:29:19.663

And this woman was one of the Chechens who ran this race. It was a 5K and a government car.

00:29:19.923 --> 00:29:23.083

And I wasn't in the country at this time. This was reported to me.

00:29:23.183 --> 00:29:25.783

A government car rolled over her and killed her.

00:29:25.963 --> 00:29:30.563

And the message was to the Chechens, never have this race again. And they never did.

00:29:31.483 --> 00:29:35.503

So, I mean, this very much was orchestrated by the person that I was with.

00:29:35.603 --> 00:29:38.023

This was his amount. So, yeah.

00:29:38.543 --> 00:29:42.303

Wow. Now, just for context, can you explain to me?

00:29:42.663 --> 00:29:49.363

A KGB agent. What is that? So KGB agent is like a CIA agent.

00:29:49.563 --> 00:29:54.463

They're basically, so it's like Putin. So I can look there in my book,

00:29:54.543 --> 00:29:58.503

there's a whole chapter on Putin called Victim, Morrison to Perpetrator.

00:29:58.823 --> 00:30:03.443

He aspired to be a KGB agent. He went to KGB school. You go to KGB school.

00:30:03.703 --> 00:30:08.103

So first he became a lawyer, just a little, I can give a little background of

00:30:08.103 --> 00:30:11.083

Putin, Putin, which is, it's a very complicated story.

00:30:11.263 --> 00:30:15.003

There's two stories. One was that he was born out of wedlock.

00:30:15.003 --> 00:30:19.263

And then this woman married a man who was abusive.

00:30:19.283 --> 00:30:22.863

And then she sent Putin back to her parents.

00:30:23.703 --> 00:30:26.863

And then her parents couldn't deal with him.

00:30:27.023 --> 00:30:32.143

So they gave him to this couple who had lost two children during the siege of Leningrad.

00:30:32.423 --> 00:30:35.863

And those are actually Putin's parents today.

00:30:36.762 --> 00:30:43.942

And that here is this man that is abandoned, betrayed, handed off like a football, right?

00:30:44.062 --> 00:30:50.462

That is not wanted, has a mother who's ambivalent, then is given to this family.

00:30:50.542 --> 00:30:55.042

So the family that he was given to, they had survived the siege of Leningrad,

00:30:55.142 --> 00:30:56.482

which was in World War II.

00:30:56.922 --> 00:31:00.422

And the mother almost died from starvation.

00:31:00.602 --> 00:31:04.282

The father had been on the front and came home to find her body,

00:31:04.442 --> 00:31:07.722

her corpse on a wheelbarrow with other dead people. And he said,

00:31:07.762 --> 00:31:08.982

wait, she's still breathing.

00:31:09.102 --> 00:31:13.762

And he took her body and resuscitated her and she eventually survived.

00:31:14.182 --> 00:31:18.762

But then one of their biological sons died from starvation and diphtheria and

00:31:18.762 --> 00:31:21.462

another son died and then they were given Putin.

00:31:21.662 --> 00:31:28.862

And then he grew up in this horrible, horrible post-war environment in Leningrad.

00:31:29.262 --> 00:31:32.702

He grew up in a one-room apartment with like 12 other families.

00:31:32.802 --> 00:31:36.082

He was a skinny, scrawny kid. He was bullied, made fun of.

00:31:36.282 --> 00:31:39.422

He was a hooligan. He would fight people on the subway.

00:31:39.922 --> 00:31:45.462

And it was very much about him having this macho bravado to cover up his vulnerabilities

00:31:45.462 --> 00:31:52.462

and his sense of loss and not being wanted as a child. And he eventually went

00:31:52.462 --> 00:31:54.702

to law school, then KGB school.

00:31:54.902 --> 00:32:00.642

He wanted to be a KGB agent internationally, but apparently he wasn't that good

00:32:00.642 --> 00:32:02.462

of a student at KGB school.

00:32:02.562 --> 00:32:07.942

So he stayed in Russia and then he was brought into amazing power. hour.

00:32:08.042 --> 00:32:14.602

And so that just gives you a background of what a KGB agent is.

00:32:14.682 --> 00:32:16.702

And they're basically taught to kill people.

00:32:16.802 --> 00:32:22.322

I believe I was poisoned with manmade anthrax and both Russia and America had

00:32:22.322 --> 00:32:25.442

stockpiled manmade anthrax for biological warfare.

00:32:25.882 --> 00:32:29.922

And they agreed to stop, but Russia continued to stockpile it.

00:32:30.569 --> 00:32:38.049

And this is, you know, what you learn in KGB school. Wow, wow, wow. So insane.

00:32:38.489 --> 00:32:46.569

So insane. Yes. Now, when you were poisoned, how long did it take you to get

00:32:46.569 --> 00:32:48.869

over being poisoned with anthrax?

00:32:49.269 --> 00:32:52.989

I'm still dealing with the consequences of being poisoned. When someone's poisoned,

00:32:53.129 --> 00:32:55.929

there's always sequelae. But really for three years.

00:32:56.049 --> 00:33:00.869

So I was I went there in 2005, almost died there. But for three years,

00:33:00.889 --> 00:33:05.609

from 2005 to 2008, I lived in a liminal space closer to death than life.

00:33:05.749 --> 00:33:08.929

I couldn't get out of bed. I could barely lift my head.

00:33:09.209 --> 00:33:15.089

Because I'm a really resilient, determined person, somehow I got myself to work.

00:33:15.229 --> 00:33:17.589

It was a block away, like just walking a block.

00:33:17.809 --> 00:33:20.749

Here's this ultra endurance athlete that couldn't walk a block.

00:33:21.029 --> 00:33:24.289

Like I would walk a block and have to rest for like an hour.

00:33:24.289 --> 00:33:28.249

It had tremendous, I had pneumonia a hundred times.

00:33:28.389 --> 00:33:33.869

I had GI parasitic infections for 12 years. I developed 20 food allergies,

00:33:33.869 --> 00:33:35.829

never had a food allergy in my life.

00:33:36.269 --> 00:33:41.789

And then developed a chronic immunosuppressive disorder, which I still have.

00:33:42.029 --> 00:33:47.269

And I have consequences from that as well. But, you know, I'm a very determined person.

00:33:47.329 --> 00:33:52.869

I'll leave no rock unturned. So I had to do a lot of alternative medicine that's

00:33:52.869 --> 00:33:54.309

actually illegal in this country.

00:33:54.429 --> 00:33:58.649

But through my education with being poisoned and other people that had been

00:33:58.649 --> 00:34:03.409

poisoned, like the post office people here in New York City who were poisoned

00:34:03.409 --> 00:34:08.869

with anthrax, I learned how to fight it.

00:34:08.869 --> 00:34:13.109

You know, with thieves as an example, it's an essential oil that kills anthrax.

00:34:13.109 --> 00:34:18.449

And I did many, many detoxes. But one of them was a heavy, heavy,

00:34:18.509 --> 00:34:22.309

high dose detox with thieves, which is an essential oil.

00:34:22.509 --> 00:34:27.609

Yes. So no, it's, it's had ramifications that I still live with today.

00:34:27.669 --> 00:34:33.089

Although I would say right today, I'm probably 80% better, but really for three

00:34:33.089 --> 00:34:35.389

years, I was closer to death than life.

00:34:36.178 --> 00:34:47.938

Wow. Has that experience alone made you bitter, angry at the Russians who did this to you?

00:34:47.978 --> 00:34:51.858

I mean, like, I'm just trying to understand like your mindset and getting through

00:34:51.858 --> 00:34:53.258

this and even where you are today.

00:34:53.598 --> 00:34:58.878

So I think I was very upset with this particular person, especially when I heard

00:34:58.878 --> 00:35:03.958

that he killed the salt of this earth death Chechen refugee who started a school

00:35:03.958 --> 00:35:08.358

for other other deaf Chechen refugees and brutalized her,

00:35:08.418 --> 00:35:11.898

like run over her body when she's running a race against terrorists.

00:35:12.018 --> 00:35:13.038

I mean, it's just like outrageous.

00:35:13.658 --> 00:35:19.678

I certainly was enraged and angry with what he did to me as well for a long time.

00:35:19.898 --> 00:35:26.938

But I feel that my work here in the world and in my life is to overcome this

00:35:26.938 --> 00:35:34.418

type of tragedy and this type of darkness that I think we're all all capable of, unfortunately,

00:35:34.618 --> 00:35:43.118

but that I want to help people that are marginalized and ostracized and often

00:35:43.118 --> 00:35:48.318

suffer from undiagnosed psychiatric illness to get the psychiatric illness that

00:35:48.318 --> 00:35:52.438

they deserve and not to resort to retaliation and violence.

00:35:52.698 --> 00:35:57.918

Like I could have tried to retaliate and I didn't. I mean, you know,

00:35:57.918 --> 00:36:03.178

I mean, I did have an encounter with him, I should say, where he walked in on me in the bathroom.

00:36:03.358 --> 00:36:07.858

So we were sharing a house. It was a general's house in Ingushetia,

00:36:08.038 --> 00:36:11.218

which is the neighboring province from Chechnya.

00:36:11.898 --> 00:36:16.338

And I was in the bathroom. He walked in on me in the bathroom and he told me to get out.

00:36:16.518 --> 00:36:21.938

And I told him, don't talk to me like that. If you talk to me, you show me respect.

00:36:22.158 --> 00:36:24.178

You don't talk that way. That's embarrassing.

00:36:24.618 --> 00:36:27.118

And, you know, I refused to get out of the bathroom.

00:36:28.698 --> 00:36:33.018

Yeah. So, I mean, I'm the type, probably not the wisest move.

00:36:33.258 --> 00:36:36.698

You know, this man was barely five foot tall. He was like a Napoleon.

00:36:36.818 --> 00:36:37.998

He's barely five foot tall.

00:36:38.278 --> 00:36:42.818

He had an issue with his height. He was very angry.

00:36:42.938 --> 00:36:47.918

He was very angry with the Chechens. They also project and complicate things.

00:36:48.238 --> 00:36:52.718

For instance, he had told the man that I was with that the Chechens hated me.

00:36:52.818 --> 00:36:56.818

And the Chechens loved me. Like I was always playing with the Chechen girls

00:36:56.818 --> 00:37:02.198

and giving them like clothes and gifts and they were teaching me Russian lessons and Chechen lessons.

00:37:02.438 --> 00:37:07.338

And so it's always like a projection. It's a denial, deflection and projection.

00:37:07.698 --> 00:37:12.718

And I knew that Chechens knew exactly who he was. I could see it in their eyes.

00:37:12.938 --> 00:37:17.878

And we had an interpreter, but I could see how they recoiled from him.

00:37:17.918 --> 00:37:20.238

They knew exactly who he was and why it was there.

00:37:20.658 --> 00:37:27.578

So, yeah, no. No, but he was telling the person I was with that they didn't

00:37:27.578 --> 00:37:29.358

like me when they didn't like him.

00:37:29.538 --> 00:37:35.558

So this is what they very much do. It's all projection and deflection, but...

00:37:36.232 --> 00:37:39.992

No, I feel like I can't, I won't live my life with bitterness.

00:37:40.172 --> 00:37:45.712

I feel like the paradox is that I had the spiritual awakening from being poisoned.

00:37:45.792 --> 00:37:50.972

And what I learned was to slow down, to accept my vulnerabilities,

00:37:51.132 --> 00:37:55.812

to accept that my body's aging and it's not perfect,

00:37:56.052 --> 00:38:02.432

to accept that I am a human human being with frailties, but,

00:38:02.512 --> 00:38:09.492

but yet I am interconnected to, to everyone in the world and what we do or don't do has consequences.

00:38:09.752 --> 00:38:16.392

And I feel impassioned to try to decrease the gun violence that's happening in our world.

00:38:16.412 --> 00:38:24.432

Just yesterday, I was on script news with the Kansas city Superbowl championship parade, mass shooting.

00:38:24.692 --> 00:38:30.552

And, you know, ironically it was the six year year anniversary of the Parkland

00:38:30.552 --> 00:38:34.692

shooting where 17 students and teachers were killed.

00:38:34.812 --> 00:38:41.372

And that Parkland shooter suffered from hearing voices and was bullied and ostracized,

00:38:41.432 --> 00:38:45.512

was given up by his, so his parents had died and he was adopted.

00:38:45.992 --> 00:38:52.072

And here again is a kid who's unwanted, shuffled around and his biological mother

00:38:52.072 --> 00:38:53.792

was the only one who stabilized him.

00:38:53.932 --> 00:38:58.432

I mean, this is a kid that was was completely isolated and alone and bullied

00:38:58.432 --> 00:39:02.272

and ostracized his stepbrother, also bullied him.

00:39:02.392 --> 00:39:05.612

And in a moment, he chooses to

00:39:05.612 --> 00:39:10.452

retaliate and, you know, probably regrets that for the rest of his life.

00:39:10.592 --> 00:39:14.692

I mean, he, I listened to the videotape of him after the shooting, he did regret it.

00:39:14.772 --> 00:39:20.732

So no, I just feel impassioned, more impassioned to, to help people in that

00:39:20.732 --> 00:39:24.612

I won't live my life with bitterness or anger, because in my mind,

00:39:24.612 --> 00:39:28.432

that's what this person wanted. I mean, he clearly wanted me dead.

00:39:28.692 --> 00:39:33.812

And I think because I was in such incredible physical health and also because

00:39:33.812 --> 00:39:37.292

I'm a medical doctor, I could put the medical pieces of the puzzle together.

00:39:37.432 --> 00:39:40.872

I mean, it took me, so I was poisoned in 2005. 2010,

00:39:41.292 --> 00:39:46.992

I had enough strength to begin to sit up in my computer and start investigating

00:39:46.992 --> 00:39:52.952

my symptoms and then symptoms of people that had been poisoned with Anthrax. So our military.

00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:58.120

Was vaccinated with anthrax. And many of the men died from heart attacks.

00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:03.980

Many of the women developed very similar symptoms to me with chronic immunosuppression symptoms.

00:40:04.200 --> 00:40:11.220

I had weird rash, horrible rashes, not feeling, you know, feeling like a car had hit you.

00:40:11.360 --> 00:40:15.080

I mean, just devastatingly, no energy.

00:40:15.560 --> 00:40:21.100

Many of my symptoms were similar. And yeah, I just, he had probably put the

00:40:21.100 --> 00:40:22.560

poison in my food or drink.

00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:26.240

So, yeah. And at the time I developed flu-like symptoms.

00:40:26.320 --> 00:40:30.540

And then three days later I developed these severe symptoms and that's characteristic

00:40:30.540 --> 00:40:34.500

of anthrax poisoning, which is you develop flu-like symptoms.

00:40:34.520 --> 00:40:37.020

And then three days later, most people die.

00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:43.060

And then it looks like food poisoning because by the time you think of anthrax,

00:40:43.060 --> 00:40:45.100

so that's the other story here,

00:40:45.200 --> 00:40:50.740

which which is anthrax, because it has now become a biological weapon.

00:40:51.160 --> 00:40:58.260

Anthrax is a simple bacteria that is in the ground and that's found in sheep.

00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:02.340

So often sheep herders get it from handling sheep, their skin.

00:41:02.660 --> 00:41:11.860

And when people are diagnosed with anthrax poisoning, there currently is no test as a sequelae.

00:41:11.860 --> 00:41:16.700

So it's only if you're acutely infected when you're septic, which means you

00:41:16.700 --> 00:41:18.060

have an infection in your blood.

00:41:18.180 --> 00:41:22.140

So that would have been when I was in Chechnya, you have to think about it,

00:41:22.180 --> 00:41:25.760

which is most people aren't going to think about it unless you're in Russia

00:41:25.760 --> 00:41:29.220

or in the Middle East where it's more endemic to the soil.

00:41:29.820 --> 00:41:33.820

And then you have to draw the blood and culture the blood to look for anthrax.

00:41:33.820 --> 00:41:39.280

So I actually found someone at the NIH in Bethesda, Maryland,

00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:46.700

who was trying to get a blood test to detect anthrax many years after being poisoned.

00:41:46.780 --> 00:41:50.320

And she said, after three years, you no longer had antibodies.

00:41:50.600 --> 00:41:52.600

And I think by the time I found her, it was 2012.

00:41:53.805 --> 00:41:59.465

And I didn't have antibodies for it. So, but I don't even know if she has marketed

00:41:59.465 --> 00:42:01.145

that. This was all like research.

00:42:01.425 --> 00:42:04.245

She was doing research with people who had been poisoned with anthrax,

00:42:04.245 --> 00:42:05.865

like the post office people and myself.

00:42:06.725 --> 00:42:10.485

Yes. You know, and Western doctors are ignorant with anthrax.

00:42:10.565 --> 00:42:11.705

They don't know about it.

00:42:11.805 --> 00:42:17.045

They misinformed me. I had the leading GI infectious specialist in Manhattan

00:42:17.045 --> 00:42:18.785

say, oh, come into my office.

00:42:18.865 --> 00:42:22.285

I'll test for it. And then he said, oh, wait, there is no test for it.

00:42:22.285 --> 00:42:25.965

And so things like that, which was there.

00:42:26.185 --> 00:42:31.865

Western doctors are ignorant when it comes to anthrax. And I really had to do

00:42:31.865 --> 00:42:33.885

all this digging and research.

00:42:33.965 --> 00:42:38.305

And it's in my book. And I published medical papers on it as well,

00:42:38.405 --> 00:42:43.325

where I put the pieces of the puzzle together. And I realized the best medical

00:42:43.325 --> 00:42:48.845

guess that was manmade anthrax. I should also say I had Rife testing.

00:42:49.085 --> 00:42:54.125

So a Rife machine works on energy. So everything has energy.

00:42:54.325 --> 00:42:56.625

Certain bacteria have a certain vibrational frequency.

00:42:57.345 --> 00:43:01.845

So I had biological testing on a Rife machine, meaning from my hair,

00:43:02.045 --> 00:43:04.625

morning sputum, and fingernails.

00:43:04.665 --> 00:43:08.745

And she's the one that detected I had man-made anthrax all throughout my body.

00:43:08.845 --> 00:43:12.025

And that was in, I believe that was in 2010. and 10.

00:43:12.205 --> 00:43:16.265

So, and then I did more research to make sure that that was accurate.

00:43:16.765 --> 00:43:22.525

Wow. Wow. You have definitely been through a lot because it was after that,

00:43:22.625 --> 00:43:25.345

that you ended up having breast cancer, correct?

00:43:25.925 --> 00:43:30.565

Yes. Yes. Yes. So 2001, I was a first responder.

00:43:30.685 --> 00:43:35.745

2005, I was poisoned with anthrax, I believe. And then 2017,

00:43:36.065 --> 00:43:37.845

yes, I developed breast cancer.

00:43:38.005 --> 00:43:40.265

Yes. Yeah. And had a mastectomy. Yes.

00:43:41.049 --> 00:43:48.149

Yeah. My goodness. My goodness. All of this then is what inspired you to write

00:43:48.149 --> 00:43:50.409

the book that has brought us here today.

00:43:50.729 --> 00:43:54.249

Yes, very much so. Tell me about the book.

00:43:54.589 --> 00:43:58.669

Yes, I would love to. It's my baby. It's my labor of love.

00:43:58.989 --> 00:44:03.209

I, you know, as a doctor, I didn't really know how to write.

00:44:03.349 --> 00:44:08.009

So it was my passion. I could write psychoanalytically, which is very different

00:44:08.009 --> 00:44:13.469

writing and medically, but not, not creative writing or for lay people writing.

00:44:13.669 --> 00:44:17.289

It's an art. And so I went back to school.

00:44:17.369 --> 00:44:21.389

I took classes at Sarah Lawrence, which is here in New York,

00:44:21.389 --> 00:44:24.429

to write and learned how to write.

00:44:24.589 --> 00:44:26.989

Initially, I didn't even know how to type or use the computer.

00:44:27.169 --> 00:44:30.629

I remember I would handwrite everything and send it to this lovely man in the

00:44:30.629 --> 00:44:32.749

Philippines who would type things for me.

00:44:32.749 --> 00:44:40.369

So that's where I began which is at the very like basics here and I was determined

00:44:40.369 --> 00:44:46.029

to write this book because like you and your story which is so inspiring and

00:44:46.029 --> 00:44:47.589

has such grit and perseverance.

00:44:48.229 --> 00:44:54.409

And love I wanted to write my book just to inspire one person to say look if

00:44:54.409 --> 00:44:59.749

I can go through all of this and I have and I'm I'm still you know I'm not a

00:44:59.749 --> 00:45:03.649

perfect person but I I'm a loving person I try to help my brothers and sisters.

00:45:03.749 --> 00:45:06.129

I try to make a difference in the world.

00:45:06.249 --> 00:45:11.509

And you can use adversity to transcend it to make you a better person.

00:45:11.549 --> 00:45:16.969

And I really feel like, ironically, being poisoned was this paradoxical gift

00:45:16.969 --> 00:45:19.889

where I changed as a person.

00:45:20.009 --> 00:45:23.429

I couldn't push my body anymore the way I used to.

00:45:24.089 --> 00:45:26.989

I couldn't super achieve anymore, really.

00:45:26.989 --> 00:45:33.649

So really, I went from living in the phenomenal world, which is the materialistic

00:45:33.649 --> 00:45:36.669

transactional world, more into the noumenal world,

00:45:36.889 --> 00:45:43.309

which is more of the spiritual invisible world where what matters to me is being

00:45:43.309 --> 00:45:44.609

connected with other people.

00:45:44.609 --> 00:45:50.629

What matters to me is helping other people with depression or psychosis or loss

00:45:50.629 --> 00:45:54.909

to transcend those feelings into joy, harmony, and bliss.

00:45:55.069 --> 00:45:59.569

I found those things as a result of being poisoned. And I certainly didn't have

00:45:59.569 --> 00:46:01.849

those, not harmony and joy.

00:46:02.069 --> 00:46:06.449

I didn't really have those feelings before I was poisoned.

00:46:06.589 --> 00:46:12.609

What I had was super achieving, feeling worthy, and then it all very quickly dissolving.

00:46:13.466 --> 00:46:20.246

And I wrote my book to try to say, if you're suffering from mental illness, please get help.

00:46:20.266 --> 00:46:22.546

Please get help. There are people that care like me.

00:46:23.246 --> 00:46:27.226

Leave no rock unturned. Get help. There is a TED Talk.

00:46:27.466 --> 00:46:33.126

Aaron Stark has this TED Talk called I Was Almost a School Mass Shooter.

00:46:33.166 --> 00:46:38.946

And it talks about how he was bullied, ostracized. He was made fun of because

00:46:38.946 --> 00:46:39.966

he was overweight. weight.

00:46:40.026 --> 00:46:45.046

He had a family that constantly dislocated and he had to move from school to

00:46:45.046 --> 00:46:47.646

school to school. So he couldn't make friends if he wanted to.

00:46:47.826 --> 00:46:54.486

And his family didn't have the means to feed him well or to dress him in proper clothing.

00:46:55.126 --> 00:46:59.826

He felt bitter and enraged and angry as we all were.

00:47:00.206 --> 00:47:04.166

But then poor decision was planning to go to his high school and be a school

00:47:04.166 --> 00:47:07.346

shooter. He went next door to say goodbye to his neighbor.

00:47:07.506 --> 00:47:11.006

His neighbor looked in his eyes, saw something was really off,

00:47:11.226 --> 00:47:13.766

said, hey, something's not right here. Come in.

00:47:13.846 --> 00:47:16.306

I want to talk to you. Fed him food.

00:47:16.646 --> 00:47:19.886

And this is his TED talk, Aaron Stark.

00:47:20.066 --> 00:47:24.226

He said, because of that kindness, one simple act of kindness,

00:47:24.466 --> 00:47:29.466

loving kindness, he didn't go to school and wasn't a mass shooter.

00:47:29.466 --> 00:47:34.966

And this is what my book is about, how all of us in society are responsible

00:47:34.966 --> 00:47:39.086

for every mass shooting, for any gun violence.

00:47:39.266 --> 00:47:44.806

What we do or don't do has ramifications. If we worry about our personal safety,

00:47:44.866 --> 00:47:49.406

and if we see someone who's being ostracized, shot, and bullied,

00:47:49.566 --> 00:47:54.506

and don't reach out to that person, all you have to do is say, hi, how are you, smile,

00:47:55.006 --> 00:47:57.706

show some just human kindness.

00:47:57.706 --> 00:48:03.506

It doesn't have to be a lot that this can make the difference in someone's world

00:48:03.506 --> 00:48:06.686

from making a really poor impulsive decision.

00:48:07.446 --> 00:48:11.946

Yeah, absolutely. Remind us where we can find your book at.

00:48:12.026 --> 00:48:16.986

Where's the best place for us to send anybody interested and remind us of the title.

00:48:17.486 --> 00:48:20.726

Yeah. So the title is a mouthful. I tried to get it changed,

00:48:20.886 --> 00:48:23.606

but my academic publishers Rutledge wouldn't let me change it.

00:48:23.606 --> 00:48:26.246

But I'll say the whole title.

00:48:26.406 --> 00:48:32.706

But if you remember Desire for Destruction and my name, Nina Serfolio on Amazon, it comes right up.

00:48:32.826 --> 00:48:38.726

The name is Psychoanalytic and Spiritual Perspectives on Terrorism,

00:48:38.906 --> 00:48:40.626

Desire for Destruction.

00:48:41.286 --> 00:48:46.426

And if you remember Desire for Destruction, Nina Serfolio on Amazon, it comes right up.

00:48:46.686 --> 00:48:52.146

OK, OK, perfect. Well, I will be sure that a link to directly to your book on

00:48:52.146 --> 00:48:55.286

Amazon is left in the show notes for anybody interested.

00:48:56.335 --> 00:48:59.315

Thank you, Kevin. Yeah, of course, of course.

00:48:59.435 --> 00:49:04.055

And, you know, honestly, thank you so much for being here today,

00:49:04.195 --> 00:49:10.615

for sharing your story and all the absolute just craziness that has comprised

00:49:10.615 --> 00:49:13.155

your story. I mean, my goodness.

00:49:13.315 --> 00:49:17.155

I mean, I listen to you think of it and I'm like, this sounds like some type

00:49:17.155 --> 00:49:18.735

of diehard movie or something.

00:49:18.735 --> 00:49:29.615

But, you know, it's just so it's your amazing outlook on life and the way that you see people,

00:49:29.695 --> 00:49:33.915

the way that you see all the situation that makes you so amazing.

00:49:34.015 --> 00:49:36.215

And I just appreciate you being here.

00:49:36.395 --> 00:49:41.615

Well, thank you so much, Kevin. And I say right back at you because I'm inspired

00:49:41.615 --> 00:49:48.555

by your incredible grit, perseverance, beauty, humanity, and everyone can learn as well.

00:49:48.735 --> 00:49:55.495

To be inspired to overcome such incredible adversity that I can't even imagine, actually.

00:49:55.675 --> 00:50:00.255

Like you just, you astound me. Your beauty, your love, your kindness,

00:50:00.415 --> 00:50:02.135

what you're doing on your podcast.

00:50:02.555 --> 00:50:09.635

If we have one person today, I'm honored. People like you is what inspires me and keeps me going.

00:50:10.195 --> 00:50:16.995

Oh, well, thank you so much. That honestly, honestly means so much to me. coming from you.

00:50:17.115 --> 00:50:19.415

I appreciate that so much.

00:50:19.875 --> 00:50:24.035

Again, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Kevin. I hope you have a

00:50:24.035 --> 00:50:27.735

beautiful day. And it was my honor to spend my birthday with you.

00:50:28.095 --> 00:50:34.595

That's right. Absolutely. Yes. We all have to remember wishing you a happy birthday and my goodness.

00:50:34.655 --> 00:50:41.135

And for you listening today, my hope is as always that you have been entertained,

00:50:41.375 --> 00:50:44.015

but more so that you've been impacted.

00:50:44.475 --> 00:50:49.195

Something said today that will impact your life from this day forward.

00:50:49.535 --> 00:50:53.795

Remember, if you like today's episode, be sure to share it with a friend,

00:50:53.955 --> 00:50:58.695

spread the news of this incredible woman who we just got to hear her story.

00:50:59.215 --> 00:51:04.015

Always in the hope that it will leave an impact on your life.

00:51:04.255 --> 00:51:07.475

My name is Kevin Lowe, and this is Great Grace and Inspiration.

00:51:07.475 --> 00:51:09.295

Get out there and enjoy the day.