Show Transcript

0:00:00 - (Kevin Lowe): You what's up? And welcome back to the podcast. This is Grit Grayson inspiration, episode number 244. I'm your host, Kevin Lowe. And guys, if you are listening to this episode at the time of its release, well, then, you know Christmas is less than a week away, and therefore I'm taking a break just like you are. So today I pulled out one of my favorite episodes, one of the fan favorite episodes from the past, and am giving it to you today.

0:00:35 - (Kevin Lowe): The topic is still relevant. The guest is still amazing. This is my interview with John Chisholm, a guy who is going to blow you away. So don't think of this as a rerun. Think of it as a reboot, because this is my interview with John Chisholm. Enjoy. And more importantly, I wish you an amazing holiday season ahead. Enjoy the time. Eat some candy canes, drink some hot chocolate, bake some Christmas cookies.

0:01:08 - (Kevin Lowe): Soak it all in, my friend, because, well, that's what life is all about. I hope you enjoy today's episode with John Chisel. What's up, my friend? And welcome to grit, grace, and inspiration. I am your host, Kevin Lowe. 20 years ago, I awoke from a life saving surgery, only to find that I was left completely blind. And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.

0:01:35 - (Kevin Lowe): And here on this podcast, I want to share those insights with you. Because, friend, if you are still searching for your purpose, still trying to understand why, or still left searching for that next right path to take, we'll consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from where you are to where you want to be. John Chisholm, a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

0:02:00 - (John Chisum): Kevin Lowe wouldn't be anywhere else but right here with.

0:02:06 - (Kevin Lowe): That. I appreciate that. Well, listen, John, I'm excited to dive into so many different aspects of your story to get to know you better than what I've read in the bio. But before we get to what's happening in life today, I would love just to understand a little bit more about you, where you've come from, what got you into the music business. And so if you wouldn't mind just kind of taking me back a little bit, and it's kind of walking through.

0:02:34 - (John Chisum): Things I'm happy to do. You know, one of my tendencies is to over share, so I think that's kind of good in some ways, but I can get really granular. So I'm going to try to give you the highlights, if that's okay, kev, and try not to make it too boring for people. But I realized just this week that I came to Nashville 39 years ago. So I think that means I'm old or something. But I had come to Christ as an 18 year old and out of drug, sex, and rock and roll, just a wild child kind of life.

0:03:11 - (John Chisum): And the first thing I wanted to do was to share it with the world, but I didn't know what that meant, how to do it. I dreamed of getting a song recorded someday and just was clueless. Had no idea. Fast forward about ten years. I had the opportunity to come here and go to work for a church. So moved here. Long story short, it didn't work out. And my wife, now of 42 years, not that she's 42 years old, but we've been married 42 years.

0:03:42 - (John Chisum): We had $40 and no place to live, and I just didn't know what we were going to do. I wound up getting a paper route, making $60 a week. She got a little job making probably $20 a week. We were poor. We were just poor. And we were homeless for a brief season before that was even a thing. I don't know what they called them before we started calling them homeless, but we were that, and we wound up not living in a paceboard box under the overpass. But it was not a fun situation.

0:04:16 - (John Chisum): And in the first few months of living here, I wound up meeting some important people in the music business. And I was so dumb. Just sharp enough to stick in the ground and green enough to grow. I met these people that were already well known, but I didn't know who they were. They listened to some songs, and, kevin, I promise, God must have just shut their ears, because those songs weren't any good.

0:04:41 - (John Chisum): But they signed me to a publishing contract. Now, you can't do that these days. You don't just walk into a coffee meeting and get a contract unless you're, like, already something really big, right? Well, those songs never saw the light of day. But my first year, I got about 20 songs recorded, and then I got hired to be a publisher. I didn't even know what a publisher was, but over the next few years, I worked my way up to vice president of publishing for this company and had a great career.

0:05:13 - (John Chisum): Then I went to another company that was even bigger, managed over 18 songwriters, did over 200 pieces of product, and now, at this point in my life, 39 years later, I've had about 400 songs, give or take, recorded. I've made, gosh, almost a dozen records. I've traveled over a million miles with Delta. I've had the blessing and the privilege of singing and teaching and doing all kinds of great stuff all around the world.

0:05:41 - (John Chisum): And it's just been crazy. So that's the background. And then I currently have a company called Nashville Christian Songwriters, and I have the privilege now of downloading all that success to aspiring christian songwriters all over the world. So it's been a journey, bro. Now I can get more granular. You will not believe how quick that version was.

0:06:09 - (Kevin Lowe): Okay. What a crazy version, though, that was, because we went from one spectrum all the way to another. Let's look at your life, personal. So aside from the music business and stuff, take me back to before you got into church and became a Christian, you kind of gave me a little insight into life. So take me back to that point.

0:06:39 - (John Chisum): In, you know, I love my mom and daddy. They're with Jesus now. But we didn't grow up in a very religious home. We didn't grow up in a home where we didn't go to church. We didn't talk about. And none of that. We were a music family. We didn't perform together. But my mom and dad were great bluegrass musicians, and my dad played. He did flat picking guitar. He played fiddle and banjo and mandolin and bazooki and anything that had a string on it, he was going to play. And he really was kind of an audiophile. He loved everything from flattened scrugs to Mahler symphonies. And I grew up hearing all of that, plus all the acid rock and roll I was into, like, jethro Tull and Emerson, lake and Palmer. This is like the 60s, right? The late 60s, early 70s.

0:07:29 - (John Chisum): So I was really just a little pothead, and I'll just go ahead and come out about that. And my life really revolved around just getting stoned every day and loving music and just kind of being. I was a late hippie because that was a little bit. That was probably four or five years earlier, but I was still considered myself a flower child. I kind of still do. You can't see me, but I have a ring of wildflowers in my hair right now. I just. No, I don't. I'm teasing you.

0:08:04 - (Kevin Lowe): Okay. I was like, wow, that's not at all what I pictured this guy looking like.

0:08:12 - (John Chisum): Oh, man, that was bad. I'm sorry. No, actually, I couldn't think of those little clover things that we used to braid together as kids. Do you remember those little things? But anyway. No, but I was a hippie. I was just a little flower child pothead kid. And I wound up going on a youth trip with the church. And I remember I wasn't in church, so I didn't really know what church was, but I was a singer.

0:08:35 - (John Chisum): I had gotten into high school choir, and the choir director heard a little bit of talent, and so he got me into voice lessons at the college level. And I was actually moving into what looked like an operatic career. And I was being trained to be a lyric tenor because I had a really high voice. Of course, maybe it was because I hadn't hit puberty or something. I don't know what it was, but I sang real high. And so I was on this track to do classical music, but a kid that I used to get high with all the time, his name is David, he turned out to just be a backslidden little Baptist boy, and he got his life right with God and got the youth group praying for me and invited me to go sing on a youth trip. And so I loved to sing and I wanted to do that. And so I went on the trip. And the very first day, this little spirit filled lady, little fireball lady named Lyn, she was in her fifty s and I thought that was old. I thought she was about having 1ft in the grave.

0:09:39 - (John Chisum): She just got a hold of me and she said, you are going down for the third time and you need Jesus. And so she literally dragged know into heaven, basically. And she's there now. Hey, Lynn, we love you. But she became a real spiritual mom to me and really taught me the word and discipled me and kind of gave me some sense about life. And it started this 45 year ministry. I wouldn't be here if it weren't for Lynn and David and that youth group praying for me. And I was so appreciative. I had to marry one of the pretty little girls out of that youth group. And she stuck with me for all these.

0:10:22 - (John Chisum): That's, that's kind of it. And life changed drastically. And, know, drugging and drinking and carousing and doing all the, I say it like this. I stopped smoking and drinking and wallering in sin and just kind of came over and got a big religious addiction. But things definitely changed and my culture changed, my friends changed, my outlook on life changed, and that's when the real trouble.

0:10:53 - (Kevin Lowe): Yeah. So I'm curious, though, because the fact mean, here you were this kid who you didn't grow with, with religion within the church. And so I'm curious to know, though, was there something that Lynn said or was there a moment that the spirit truly came into you? You know what? Because, I mean, coming from the perspective of somebody who hasn't grown up in the church and they aren't a believer. Let's face it, it can sound like a far fetched story.

0:11:35 - (Kevin Lowe): And so I'm just curious, and I.

0:11:37 - (John Chisum): Think that's a great question. And yes. The answer is yes. And I know that my parents loved me. We had our problems. We were the diss and the dysfunctional. I guess we weren't the funk in the dysfunctional, but we were deadly, the dis. And so we had. Gosh, I was just wild. I really was acting out all kinds of emotional stuff. Usually you are if you're drinking and drugging and doing all that kind of stuff.

0:12:11 - (John Chisum): There's other things kind of underlying that, even if you don't know what they are. And I think for me, I was looking for love. I was looking for a sense of belonging in a way that I didn't. I mean, and so when Lynn sat me down on that trip and just, you, you need to know the love of. And I can't explain it because it's not something you can explain. It's like you just have to kind of feel it, I guess. But there was this moment that I felt like I was kind of immersed in this golden kind of love.

0:12:54 - (John Chisum): And it was like I felt loved for the first time. I felt like somebody saw me. I felt like everything that was empty inside me was getting filled up somehow. And I couldn't explain it, but I knew that it was real. And now, 45 years later, it's just as real. It's changed. The way I kind of practice my faith is very different than it ever has been. It's broader. I definitely consider myself a global Christian, someone who is a follower of christ, but definitely very, not just tolerant, but inclusive and affirming of everyone's faith. It's like you do you. You do your faith. But that wasn't always the case because of the culture that I joined and kind of spent a lot of time with. But yes, to answer your question, there was this really serious, powerful, spirit holy moment that I'm still living in, even right now.

0:14:00 - (Kevin Lowe): So now, though, this is what I'm curious about, though, is because there's a lot of us who we become a Christian. And so as far as that goes, is we pray at dinner time and we go to church on Sunday. You didn't just stay at that level, though.

0:14:20 - (John Chisum): I did not. I went deep. But you have to remember the conversion, if you will, to put it in kind of a churchy religious word. It was deep. This was like the proverbial dark delight. And I realized that I was really pretty depressed kid. And anybody that's smoking that much weed and drinking that much alcohol and I could get pills, cocaine wasn't a thing back in the day. I mean, maybe it was for rich people or beatnicks or something, but it wasn't. In my crowd, we didn't have that kind of money.

0:15:00 - (John Chisum): If we came buy a baggie, a pot a week for $15, man, we were living the high life. So in more ways than one. But I realized, looking back and even throughout my life, wrestling with different seasons of depression that were linked probably to some of the neglect and some of the disenfranchised way that we kind of grew up. Dad, he worked, like, three jobs to pay for four kids, and mom worked, and we were kind of latchkey kids in a lot of ways. And again, not to disrespect my dear deceased parents, but it was a weird time in our culture, kind of like now, where it was kind of the height of the free love, kind of a hippie.

0:15:53 - (John Chisum): We're talking mid, late 60s, early seventy s. And I don't know how old you are. I think I'm probably twice your age, probably just guessing by your voice. But it's like that was a real pivotal time in our culture. And so I was deep, deep, deep into that kind of experience. And then Christ Jesus, I didn't even know who he was. I didn't even know. We didn't say that name, right? So when I experienced something deep and profound, it was radical for me.

0:16:26 - (John Chisum): And I have to tell you, after all these years, 40 something years of traveling through religion, some of it amazing, some of it horrible, I've come back to love. I've come back to the simplicity of what it means to recognize that God, whatever you call him, her, it, whatever that force is, is benevolent and is love. That's what I've come back to after this long journey through many different facets of the christian religion.

0:17:06 - (John Chisum): Can I just be straight up and transparent with you and your listeners here?

0:17:10 - (Kevin Lowe): Of course.

0:17:10 - (John Chisum): Do I have your permission?

0:17:12 - (Kevin Lowe): You do.

0:17:14 - (John Chisum): I don't know if I'm at the tail end, but I'm definitely coming out of a long season where my faith has pretty much been deconstructed. I've gone through six years of just having it all kind of torn down and put back together. And I think the simplest way that I can say it is that I've come back to that bedrock. And I'm so glad you asked me about that. Moment. I believe more in that moment than anything else.

0:17:44 - (John Chisum): I believe in that moment that I felt what I would just have to say was more of a supernatural love that made me feel warm, home, comfort, safe, belonging, and accepted just as I was right in that moment. Does that resonate? Does that make any sense?

0:18:09 - (Kevin Lowe): Yes, it does, 100%. If I'm following with what you're saying, it falls in line with so much of my own line of thinking is that I feel like sometimes when it comes to God and it comes to faith and religion, I feel like us as humans, we make it too complex.

0:18:31 - (John Chisum): Hello.

0:18:33 - (Kevin Lowe): And we try to break it all down, and we try to separate us off into our individual denominations, and we have the Baptists and you have the Catholics and you have this and you have that. And I have to think, I don't think that's what God meant for it to be.

0:18:51 - (John Chisum): I think God meant for it to be love and for us to love and accept one another. And I agree. And I've been on the other side of that nine pound Bible, thumping it hard and trying to get people to change into what I thought they ought to be that fit my particular brand of Christianity in that moment. And I'm not that, bro. I am not that anymore. And that's a dangerous place to be in some ways, because I do have a very strong evangelical following, people that have loved my worship recordings and all that. And I stand by those.

0:19:33 - (John Chisum): I still believe in worshipping a God of love. It's just not the same brand of you're in, you're out, you're going to heaven, you're going to hell, or I'm right, you're wrong. It's like I've just laid all that down. That's up to God now. And I'm not the sheriff of the kingdom of God anymore. I have resigned that position forever.

0:20:00 - (Kevin Lowe): I love it. I absolutely love it. I'm curious. You basically start this new life as a Christian, and you made reference that you started. Obviously, you've traveled all over the world and you've done all this. And so how does that kind of combine with music to where you are today?

0:20:25 - (John Chisum): Yeah, well, that's a great question. And like I said, I was raised in a very musical family, and I really did not dream of a career necessarily in music because I didn't know what that even meant. I didn't know how to have a career in music. And I grew up watching my mom and dad just make music in the living room. And when I experienced this dramatic, supernatural love and wanted to write about it and getting involved with the local church there. I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, and let me give you one more little bit of background that might be interesting.

0:21:03 - (John Chisum): When I was in high school, prior to this giant christian conversion thing, I'd be out partying, know, one, two, three in the morning on Saturday night. But I was the paid tenor at Graceland Christian Church in Memphis, Tennessee, right next to Elvis's mansion. This was back when the king was still alive, pre 77, and we would see his limousine actually use the church driveway to drive around back of the graceland mansion. So I'd be out doping and drinking and stuff till who knows what time of the night, and then drag my sorry carcass into that little church and sing ring the bells, ring the bells let the whole world know Christ is born in Bethlehem many years ago, and I didn't know what the hell I was even singing.

0:21:59 - (John Chisum): Is this what's going mean? So that was kind of what happened then. But anyway, so I started writing these songs, and then I started. I mean, the christian music industry was very young, very embryonic at that time. There was, like, this Jesus people movement out of Chicago and La, like a bunch of saved hippies, right? And so they laid down their weed for communion wine, I guess. But there was a lot of music coming out of that movement, and so little record companies were beginning to form around that, and we were listening to these little bitty Jesus kind of choruses back in the day, and I started wanting to write them, and so I would.

0:22:44 - (John Chisum): And I was just experimenting and started singing in churches around the area. And then one time, I did send a song up to Nashville, tennessee, to see if somebody would publish my pitiful little song. And I got rejected, and I just swore to God I'd never do that again. And then when we were offered this church position, ten years later, literally, I was 28, I think I came here, we were broke. And all that was just crazy.

0:23:14 - (John Chisum): And then it turned into what I was sharing earlier, meeting those important people. I didn't even know they were important. And getting that break, and now 400 songs later, and making records and having the opportunity to travel around. I've been in Nigeria, scam capital of the universe. Love all my brothers and sisters there. But I had an album come out 27 years ago called Firm foundation, and it hit that country, a particular pentecostal denomination there.

0:23:53 - (John Chisum): Love that record. And those songs, all, like, 14 songs, just went deep into the fabric of that denomination. And they knew all my songs. They knew everything about me, more than I wanted them to know and they love that record. So I've been over there, I think, five or six times, but there have been times I've sung in front of. I think I sang in front of about six or 8000 people one Sunday and that's a small crowd for them. I have friends who've sung in front of 300,000 people over there, so it's just insane.

0:24:34 - (John Chisum): But I've had the privilege of doing that and doing music performance, leading, worship, singing, making those records in a way that has just been a pretty amazing platform, to tell you the truth.

0:24:49 - (Kevin Lowe): Wow. So, I mean, that's really phenomenal. We hear of the term like the overnight success story and I mean, obviously it was a long journey, but you really did hit it big once.

0:25:04 - (John Chisum): You did, I'd say comparatively. And not that we're trying to compare ourselves, but I don't have a bus and a band or a helicopter pad, but I have been able to write, record and place songs through this 39 year journey that have had a global impact. I have one song in a hymnal and I'm not even dead. If you get a song in a hymnal, that means you lived about 200 years ago. I think out of the thousands I've written, in the 400 that have been published, I think one's going to outlive me. And so I think that's something to celebrate.

0:25:50 - (John Chisum): Yeah, it's like, wow, not everybody gets to do that. So I think of the thousands and thousands of people who love my music in Nigeria, I think of them so fondly because it means so much to, you know, we are very privileged here in the states. No matter what level of socioeconomic level we're on, we're still very. So, you know, I think of the dear saints, my brothers and sisters in Nigeria, and I just love them and I love their enthusiasm.

0:26:25 - (John Chisum): I love their miracle love. I just love them. And I learn, I grow something in me expands every time I get to go there. And other parts of the world, I just happen to have been there a number of times. So I'm a minor celebrity. I say I'm the David Hasselhoff of Nigeria.

0:26:48 - (Kevin Lowe): I love. What? What do you think it is? Especially that first album. Why do you think it had the impact that it did in Nigeria?

0:26:59 - (John Chisum): They were just coming out of a military state. They were independent pretty early on in their independence. Right. And so it's kind of a crazy thing that you'll hear all this jumping and jiving nigerian african, very rhythmic, powerful music. And then I'm talking about in a church service. And then for the offer, Tory, they'll sing greatest thy faithfulness. It's like, what? My jaw dropped to the floor the first time I heard that. But they're still just newly out from under the commonwealth, basically, over the last 50 years, maybe. But there's deep, deep poverty.

0:27:48 - (John Chisum): There's deep hardship in a lot of ways, and massive population. They don't think in tens. They think in thousands. Okay, I'll give you one example and try to finish the answer to the question. They have this place outside of Lagos, Nigeria, that's called the Holy Ghost campground, and it's owned by this denomination. Every third Friday, several million people go out to this campground for an overnight Holy ghost service.

0:28:23 - (John Chisum): Kevin, they'll have over 2000 in the choir.

0:28:27 - (Kevin Lowe): What?

0:28:28 - (John Chisum): And they have these sections for the pastors. The pastor's section is 10,000 chairs. I have pictures, bro. It's crazy, and it's just insane. And they'll worship all night, and people get all healed and raised from the dead and speak in tongues and levitate and do all kinds of crazy things, but it's amazing. And so those songs. Back to your question. The songs on that record were very hope and faith filled, very faith oriented, and kind of very inspirational and stirring, but from a faith power, faith, let's believe God kind of thing. And so, because of just the desperation in that country, it's been raped by the government.

0:29:19 - (John Chisum): I think they're doing better now, but it's a very rich company. But the finances, the resources have been siphoned off by some very bad people. And so I don't know the ins and outs of all that, but I know that it's not been good. And so it's actually pretty common for a young mother to die in childbirth. That doesn't happen here like it does over there. And so when a young couple gets married and gets pregnant, it can be pretty scary.

0:29:56 - (John Chisum): One of my friends over there was working really hard to provide these home care kits for midwives. And for, gosh, it's just a whole different ballgame over there when it comes to health care, which is pretty much nonexistent for people. So a lot of the christian people over there that I'm associated with are very involved deeply in humanitarian efforts. They'll do a lot of charity, which that means something very different than it does even here, but they'll do worship concerts and do a lot of things to benefit schools.

0:30:39 - (John Chisum): Most of the children's schools over there, they don't even have bathrooms. Like, if they go to the bathroom. They just go to the bathroom out in the yard. I mean, it's like they don't have toilets, many of them. And it's insane. It's insane, the wealth that's there, but it doesn't trickle down like it does here in America. So I know I'm kind of going a little afield of your question, but that's the reality.

0:31:07 - (John Chisum): And I think that that's why those songs meant so much, because it helps them focus their faith on Christ in a very visceral way.

0:31:18 - (Kevin Lowe): And you know what I kept thinking as you're talking, sharing more and more about this, I can't help but think to myself, what an awesome example to give to somebody because it's so common that you have somebody who's not a believer, who's not a follower of Jesus, who. They look at countries like Nigeria and they say, how can there be a God when people are living in those situations? And yet we're talking about those people who are living in that situation, and yet they are coming by the tens of thousands to hear his word.

0:32:03 - (John Chisum): Millions.

0:32:04 - (Kevin Lowe): Yeah.

0:32:06 - (John Chisum): Just millions. It's crazy. It is crazy.

0:32:11 - (Kevin Lowe): Yeah. It's fascinating. And at the same time, I wonder, why don't we see that here in the US? Is it because we're dispersed and we already have such access to it? We have churches all over, so we don't all need to go to one central spot when it's happening.

0:32:35 - (John Chisum): Yeah, well, you know what? I think it's because we don't feel we need it. I think some of the answer, not all, but some, is like the way it's been presented has been so politicized, it's become kind of a circus and a sideshow and it's just been kind of ridiculous. But back, like when Hurricane Katrina hit, well, guess who started going to church. A whole bunch of people started going to church when 911 happened so many years ago.

0:33:07 - (John Chisum): Guess when the biggest Sundays on record for church attendance were. We couldn't go to church during COVID But we probably would have, right? Even people that would not call themselves religious or christian at all, it winds up becoming that desperation. Like, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute. Okay, these christian people have been talking about God for a long time. Maybe there's something to it. Oh, my God, I'm dangling over hell with a threat.

0:33:38 - (John Chisum): Oh, wait, the walls are crashing in. Oh my God, the sky is falling. I better go to church. It's the same kind of phenomenon that when people who did not necessarily grow up in church have a child. And then suddenly there's some kind of interest, like, well, maybe we need to take this little boy to Sunday school because he might grow up to be an axe murderer. It's kind of like insurance, right? And so we kind of use God. I mean, we were joking earlier about the genie, but we kind of treat him like a Jesus genie, and we think that go throw a couple of coins in the offering plate or something, and then he's obligated to do something nice for us. But it's whack.

0:34:23 - (John Chisum): I don't consider myself a religious person anymore. I know that I have spent the majority of my life in this thing. I never really thought of myself as religious, but there's a lot of that, that kind of rubs off. And the worst part of it, and I'm going to just call myself out here. The worst part of it is that judgmentalism that comes with saying who's in, who's out, who's saved, who's not, who's going to heaven, who's going to hell, whose sin is worse than whose other sin.

0:34:57 - (John Chisum): And it's like, that's just none of my damn business. That's up to God. If I'm doing a good job as a Christ follower, that means when you talk to me or you're in my presence, you feel loved. If you don't feel loved, something's wrong. And there have been plenty of times I probably have not dished out the love that I could have or should have, and I repent. Sorry, everybody, if you're listening, and there was a moment you didn't feel love for me, my bad.

0:35:30 - (John Chisum): I'm sorry. And let's just get back to the love.

0:35:33 - (Kevin Lowe): Yeah, I absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. So now, circling kind of back around to tying back in with music is one thing that I'm curious to ask you about is when we talk about something, is what I would call kind of cutthroat. The music industry. We're talking about Nashville, the heart of country music, all of this. How does that work? How is that like being, though, in the christian music realm?

0:36:05 - (John Chisum): We're all a bunch of saints, bro.

0:36:12 - (Kevin Lowe): Everything's just fine.

0:36:14 - (John Chisum): Yeah, well, okay, so watch your email, because I'm going to send over my standard rich and famous contract. And all you have to do is send me $1,000 and I'll make you rich and famous. That's a pretty broad question. And I know that there are plenty of skeletons in people's closets and things that I've heard of that have not been really great. It's rare that I've heard people being outright ripped off where you've paid money and got scammed. I know that does happen.

0:36:57 - (John Chisum): I've never really been around that or close to it. So it's really difficult for me to pull an example out of my head right now to say, oh, yeah, gee, that happens all the time. It's more likely that someone gets their hopes up or a record company or publisher gets involved with somebody hoping that they can help make something big out of their career, and then it doesn't happen. Record companies and publishing contracts are notoriously weighted toward the benefit of the company because they're trying to recoup and profit from working with this artist or songwriter. And so there's a lot of disappointed people, for sure, out there because their deal didn't go the way they hoped. And it's the tiniest percentage of people that become the Luke Bryans or the Blake Sheltons of the world. For every one of those, there are a million others who are trying or who have tried to be that.

0:38:03 - (John Chisum): And that's a very tiny little window when it comes to the commercial music industry and same in the christian music industry. I mean, if you're familiar with Lauren Daigle, she was kind of a meteoric star pretty quickly, but there was a lot behind that. There are some other examples of people that seem to be hitting big in a pretty viral way, and that's a huge part of it these days, is what's happening on social.

0:38:32 - (John Chisum): And how often are you on TikTok shaking what your mama give you just to try to get some likes and shares? It's like, that's all going on. B