15 People's Stories. 5,000 Miles. And 1 Man's Mission to Share their Emotional Journey with Cancer.

That's how we can make an impact on the world.

And this is never more true than the guest in today's podcast who set out to tell the stories of 15 different people as he cycled 5,000 miles across the country to tell their story of how their lives have been impacted by cancer.

And by doing so, David Richmond would leave an impact.

An impact by sharing their stories.

And here on the podcast today, I'm here to share his story in the hopes that it will leave an impact on your life today.

Well, hey there, and welcome to the podcast.

My name is Kevin Lowe, and I am the creator and host of The Lowdown with Kevin Lowe.

Today you are tuning in for what is episode 90.

Can we just take a minute and say, wow, 90?

Yes, indeed.

This is the 90th episode.

That is 10 episodes away from 100.

Woo woo.

As you can tell, I'm a little bit excited as I'm uh sitting in my recording studio today because, well, I feel like we've come a long way.

And I couldn't be more excited for what this podcast has turned into and where it's going from here.

So today I'm sitting down with a guy named David Richmond, and David has written a book called Cycle of Lives.

Now, the topic is kind of heavy because we're talking about the effects of cancer and not just cancer on the patient, but on the family.

Because David, his sister was diagnosed with cancer, and his sister would end up dying from cancer through his own experience with that, combined with realizing the toll that cancer takes on people and their families, he started taking great interest in learning about others, about their stories of dealing with such a horrible, horrible thing.

And he would end up taking such interest in it that he would write a book called Cycle of Lives, where he would reach out to people all over the country.

And he didn't just call them, get on a Zoom call.

No, he got on a bicycle and cycled across the United States to meet one-on-one with these people.

His story is absolutely phenomenal.

And I think it's because his story is a story in and of itself as we talk about the story that he has written, the book Cycle of Lives.

I hope that you will enjoy the conversation had with David as we cycle our way across the United States, discovering the lives of people impacted by cancer.

Because chances are you have probably been impacted by cancer yourself.

And well, I think that's what just makes this interview that much more meaningful.

So before I bring you that conversation with David, I do want to take a moment to recognize the sponsor of today's podcast.

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SPEAKER_00: Well, the title of the book kind of sets the framework for what the book is about.

It's called Cycle of Lives.

The subtitle is 15 People's Stories, 5,000 Miles, and a Journey Through the Emotional Chaos of Cancer.

So what I wanted to do, Kevin, was I wanted to bring light on the fact that most people, not everyone, but most people are not well equipped to deal with hard conversations around people that are going through or have gone through trauma.

I mean, you you you probably know this as much as as anybody, but but we're like, I don't want to step on people's toes, I don't know what to say, or I feel guilty or whatever.

They maybe self-isolate because they don't know how to put it all into perspective, they don't know how to talk, they they don't want sympathy.

I give you a hundred million reasons why people aren't that well equipped, but I noticed um specifically around cancer, whether it be the doctor, the patient, the loved one, the survivor, whomever, that um when it they were great about talking about like the tasks around the cancer.

But when it came to how do you feel or what's going on in your heart, or you know, what's happen, what's happening, like how, how are you dealing with this on an emotional level?

Those conversations were really hard to have.

So I went out, I found a ton of different people.

I talked to them.

Some couldn't open up, some I couldn't get to open up, but uh, several I did.

And we got super deep over a couple of years into their stories and their traumas and whatever else might have affected their ability or inability to form these deep connections with the people in their lives over this emotional facet.

And I explored those with them to hopefully bring the reader stories that might inspire them to say, Oh, all right, that gives me an idea on how I might talk to so-and-so about so and so about, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I love that so much and so so important and so needed.

Because as you as you mentioned, yes, I do understand.

In my own, you know, life story is is you know, people don't know how to act or what to say.

And and what normally people do is they don't say or they don't act, which I find is the worst possible thing that you could do.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, or they put at least a hundred at least.

Yes.

Oh, oh, I'm sorry, you lost your leg.

Well, at least you have another one.

SPEAKER_03: Oh, and that is, oh my gosh, don't even get me started because that is you just really hit home with that one because when the people use the at least comment, whoo, baby.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you don't understand it.

What and what I what I learned through through this, Kevin, is that it's really amazing, and it's it's a very deep topic.

We could probably talk for hours about just this this one topic.

But what's really amazing is that there isn't a measurement on one person's trauma from the outsider's perspective.

What I mean by that is some people might look at what you've gone through as being of a certain caliber on an emotional level.

Somebody else might look at it and think it is 10 times worse than that or one-tenth as bad as that.

None of that matters.

What matters is how have you dealt with it?

How has it affected you?

How does it affect your ability to connect with the world, connect with the people around there?

It's your life, right?

People are living their lives.

And when it comes to cancer, especially, I'm not gonna be the one to judge whether or not somebody who has a deep-seated fear of cancer, that that is any less traumatic than somebody who's lived with cancer five different times over their over their adult life.

How how am I gonna be determining which one is the harder emotional journey to navigate?

They both could be super hard.

Maybe one's either easier or or not as difficult as the other.

I don't know.

It's how they handle it.

So so to know what's behind it and in order to connect with people in a heart-centered, authentic way, Kevin, you have to like give them a safe space to tell you what and to care about what they're going through, not what you think they're going through.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, right?

Yeah, exactly.

I totally love that.

So now I have to ask you the premise of this book, it's it's very deep.

And so I can only begin to imagine that there has to be a reason, a purpose, a drive that made you want to write this book.

SPEAKER_00: You know, that there there is, there's probably uh multiples.

It all started with with my sister.

I was going through a super crazy, ridiculous, stressful time in my life, and you know, it was at a very low point in my life and needed to kind of rewire my own thinking and completely 180 the way I was interacting with the world.

And I kind of forcibly set along myself along a path for the first time in my life, like late 30s, on kind of taking charge of my life.

And at that same time, I get a call from my sister in that same time frame that said, Hey, you know, I I've got um terminal brain cancer.

And she had a beautiful marriage and wonderful friends and two young kids, and life was really great.

And it was kind of more stark only because you know my life was at such a low point, her life had been for a while on such a high point.

And now I'm embarking on this journey to try to get to an area of peace and enjoyment and satisfaction.

And meanwhile, now she's gonna go down a path that's gonna eventually and soon lead to her death.

And so we had a lot of deep discussions about that, but I think I was really, really moved, Kevin, when I did some fundraisers in her memory and and you know, for over a few years, and I noticed that that one recurring theme that people were not able to navigate that emotional side of it.

And it was like in relation to the traumas that they had had previously in their lives, and those traumas affected their ability or their inability to connect with people, to be at peace with the emotions, to even explore the emotions.

And I just that just touched the nerve in me that said, you know, gosh, man, what I you know what I'm tired of doing, Kevin?

I'm tired of walking by somebody who has bad news or that I think something's going on, and I either one, avoid them, or number two, I go, oh my gosh, I'm sorry.

And I look to exit myself from the situation as quickly as possible.

Right.

What I'd rather do is learn how to connect with people.

And especially people that I care about and that care about me, is I really, I really feel a passion to say, how can we better connect with them, understand what they're going through, be there for a moment in their lives, maybe hopefully even at the right moment to show them that we care and that they're not so alone and that um we can understand them and have not sympathy, but empathy and compassion and a true desire to connect with them at a really deep, human, authentic level?

And that that just touches me.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, definitely.

So now, do you believe that that coming to this understanding and this realization of how people interact with with one another in the way that you've just described, do you feel like that came to light because of what you went through with your sister?

SPEAKER_00: It did.

And a great question, Kevin.

It did in in one sense, because I saw this darkness of the differences in our in our realities.

Okay.

So for example, my kids were like five, five or six years old when I had twins, and and they were five or six years old.

I remember sitting on her porch and they're playing with her kids.

Her kids were probably like eight and ten.

Mine were like five and six or eight and eleven, something like that.

And we're sitting there on the on the porch and we're laughing and we're looking at the kids, and she looks at me and she goes, You know what the worst thing about this whole freaking dying thing is?

And I'm like, what?

And she goes, Yeah, I'm never gonna see my kids grow up.

Like it's just such a bummer, man.

I love my kids so much.

I'm never gonna be able to see them grow up.

And I went, Oh my God, that does suck because I'm always worried about like, oh, something's gonna happen to my kids and some, you know, whatever.

But I couldn't even imagine if I was ripped from their lives, how much we would all miss out on.

You're right.

And and we're talking about this thing, which normally I would think like if uh if somebody told me that, I would be like, what the hell do I even say to that?

Right.

You can't tell them it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_03: Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: You can't tell them you understand what they're going through, right?

You and there's nothing you can say to make that better.

And they don't want you to anyway.

She didn't want me to say anything that was better, she just needed to know that she had a safe place to go.

This is one of the things that really sucks about dying, and to have somebody care and just be there to listen to her.

So I I guess it's a weird way to answer the question, but yeah, it does give me that and so many other experiences that came from just being moved by that.

Because I look, Kevin, you you you you know this more than anyone.

I'm I'm sure of it, and I don't even know you, right?

Is that we miss out on so much because we don't know how to connect with them or they don't know how to connect with us.

Uh people going through trauma, they self-isolate, they you know, we abandon them, not on purpose, maybe not with malicious intent, but what the hell I want to give them a widen up birth because I don't want to say something stupid or whatever the case is.

And it's just a lonely place, you know, it can be a lonely place.

And and oftentimes you don't need to talk about whatever the trauma is, but just to be there.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: In in a real way.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Is is hard.

And that's just it just is such a it's such a you know unique and and human desire.

And and and and I think we're all connected by hu by emotion.

And if we can't connect on an emotional level, then we don't really have a connection.

Yeah.

And so it's that that's you know, so I guess it's a long, rambling answer, Kevin, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, no.

And and and I and I would love to go back to to the story that you shared about sitting there on the porch with your sister.

And I couldn't help but think to myself, what a lesson I would say for for all of us of the differences in the way of looking at life.

And your sister faced with death, she sees the big picture.

She sees not getting to see her children grow up.

You, on the other hand, not being faced with death, you worry about your kids here and now, the the things that might happen to them right now, the you know, the stumbles, the falls, the you know, whatever it is.

And so when you think about it, like when I I just couldn't help but think to myself, what a beautiful representation of the importance of stop looking down at our feet as we walk and instead look out far ahead and focus on where we're going, or you'll miss the big picture of life.

SPEAKER_00: It's that's really, really well said, right?

I remember somebody said something, and I'm sure this is copied a hundred times over.

Yes.

But somebody said something like, when you make a decision, right, is this a five-second, a five-day, or a five-year decision?

Right?

So it if it's gonna be with you for five seconds, don't sweat it.

Like literally, right?

Yeah.

Right?

If it's gonna be with you for five days, well, all right, well, take it seriously, but literally, don't let it ruin your day because it's only a five-day decision.

It's gonna be when you think about like the whole super long, right?

Yep.

It's like, oh my gosh, yeah, that's and so you're right to pick your head up and just think about like, like, I gotta think about the greater meaning of all of this, right?

SPEAKER_03: If you don't mind me asking a little bit more about your sister and about that whole chapter of of your guys' life before we move on, how long did they give her when they found out that she had brain cancer?

SPEAKER_00: I think they originally told her that it was pretty serious, she's gonna have to have a surgery.

And then I think when she came out of the surgery, they had given her less time.

I think it was like a year or two most.

But because she had such a rare type of brain cancer, they made a board study of her, which was very fortunate because she got multiple points of contact from you know, a panel of doctors that were that were trying to have an input on her care.

And that I think extended her life, certainly extended her or certainly enhanced her experience because she got you know extra care and extra attention.

So she I think from very, very start to finish it was about four years.

But it was such an aggressive and rough cancer that I'd say from diagnosis to where it wasn't the only thing she was dealing with was only a matter of months.

SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay.

Wow.

And and how old was she when that happened?

SPEAKER_00: She would have been about 40.

SPEAKER_03: Okay.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe four 40, uh maybe you know, one year plus or minus in that time frame.

She would have died when she was 45, I think.

44 or 45.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: So too young, right?

SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's never and the older we all get, the younger it is.

And you know, you know, because I I mean I'm sure at a time when we were little kids, we would have said 40, oh man, that's old.

But but now at 35, I'm like, whoa, no, that's that's really young.

SPEAKER_00: I know, right?

We don't want to think about that.

That is also one of the most intriguing things that I learned about this, Kevin, was one of the doctors that I interviewed for the book.

She had a great way of explaining something and she and even the things that she was ill-equipped to deal with in in her own emotional journey as a as an oncologist.

And that is, she said, I I've just come to learn that humans are not wired to be able to understand their own mortality, they're just not wired that way.

SPEAKER_02: Exactly.

SPEAKER_00: How amazing is that?

Right?

She's like, we just don't have the ability to contemplate our own death.

And I just thought, man, that is that's really deep.

SPEAKER_03: Absolutely, absolutely.

Wow.

Now, so how long was it after your your sister died?

Or or maybe, maybe even, maybe even it was before that, but that you came up with this with the concept for this book?

SPEAKER_00: I came up with the concept, actually, so let me tell you a super quick story.

So I had uh over those few years that she was going through treatment, I had gone from being like a sedentary overweight smoker, kind of stressed out, miserable, never doing anything active in my life, really to make note of, to now doing, you know, half Iron Man's and Iron Man's and 50 mile runs and like a bunch of nonsense.

So I I really, I really turned my life around physically.

So near the end of her life, there's there's a 24 hour relay for life.

Put on by the American Cancer Society.

And you put this team together, and they, you know, they they all march, you know, around a track for 24 hours to show their support of your, you know, of what you're going through.

And it's a really emotional, wonderful thing.

And she said, Hey, David, I just want to let you know, I'm going to be there, hook or crook, one way or another.

I'm going to be there to watch my team support me for the whole 24 hours.

Just plant me on a chair and and I want to watch them.

And I said, Well, heck, in your condition, if you're going to do that, uh, yeah, I'll run for the whole 24 hours.

Right?

I mean, she was not in shape to sit there for 24 hours, but I I could run for 24 hours.

So I'll be there with you, June.

And uh two days before the relay for life, she died.

So she didn't get to be there.

And I that didn't stop me, though.

I had made a commitment, and even though it was a little raw time to be going out for a 24-hour run, I did, and that's when I first noticed it, Kevin.

And it's a it's a really uh touching story, if I could indulge you for a moment.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: So during this relay for life event, kind of it starts in the morning, goes goes to the following morning.

But in the evening, at sunset, they everybody lights uh candles that are put in bags and they write notes on the bag to people that are going through a difficult time or people they've lost or whatever.

It's very inspiring.

It's beautiful, it's inspiring, it's a very somber time.

It's called like a remembrance lap.

And everybody walks around the lap and and you know, it's it's a very quiet time.

And I was just taken by how at the most emotional time, it was the quiet time.

And I'm like, wow, when it's all fun and games, and where how do you find the right doctor?

And you know, how do you navigate insurance and how do we bring awareness to breast cancer?

Like that's we'll talk about that all day long.

But when it comes to the somber, the heavy, heavy stuff, we just walk in silence.

And I thought, and dark.

And I thought, hmm, okay, that's you know, that's telling me something.

So my kids are with me.

I think at this time they're nine, and they have actually joined me for the whole 24 hours.

It was really inspiring.

But it was windy, and we're walking around a corner of the track, you know, around the inside of a high school, uh outside, but you know, around the track.

And this woman is bent over, uh, trying to put out fire with each hand on her bags.

It was windy and the bags had caught fire.

And my my kids run up and they want to help her.

Can we go help her, Daddy?

And I'm like, yeah, go help her.

So she pats them out, and and I just stand there and watch.

And they put their hands on her shoulder and she's bawling her eyes out, and she looks up at them, and they talk back to her, and she talks to them, and then they they get up and and they start to walk.

And and one of my kids runs back and he says, Hey, can we walk with this woman?

And I'm like, Yeah, you can walk with her.

So I stood about you know 50 feet behind them and watched them walk around the lab, and they were talking and holding hands and all of that, and it was just so touching.

And afterward, I uh the lady approached me and she said, Geez, I don't know where your kids came from, but you know, I lost both my parents to cancer this year.

And I had written them such a private little note on this bag, and here it was burning, and they didn't even get to see it, and I didn't get to live it.

But your kids came around at the right time and they held my hand and they told me that, oh, well, yeah, I'm sure your parents saw you writing it and don't worry about it.

And then they asked me about my parents and I talked to them.

He goes, She goes, Nobody could ask me questions like that.

Like I wouldn't talk to them.

Your kids, they were just right there at the right time.

It was so sweet, and she was so moved by it.

And I went, hmm, there's more to the story here.

SPEAKER_03: Wow.

So, okay.

So, what I love about this is this goes back to a deeper thing that I've seen in society.

And at the time that we are recording this podcast today, I can tell you that somebody had posted something on social media just yesterday.

And it was about a video she had found of her her now 17-year-old son when he was only six years old, and he had recorded a video, and in it, she had she jotted down some takeaways where he talked about you know the the meaning of life.

And I can't remember you know now what what some of those points were, but I can tell you this much is my response was what a better world this place would be, what this life would be, if all of us entered every day with the mind of a six-year-old.

And and in in relation to the story that you just shared, because chances are if it had been two adults who ran up to that woman who helped her put out that fire, they never would have asked her those questions because we're guarded.

We we've we've we've lived, we we've we've been taught, we brought up with this thing of, you know, don't ask the questions, don't you know, make her upset.

That's gonna upset the you know, lady.

And in essence, you have the innocence of a child who asks it and it shows compassion.

And so I absolutely love that story.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.

It's a really moving story for me, too, because it not only do I gotta take it on its absolute value, which is oh my god, how wonderful is are my kids that they would be so caring about somebody, right?

That's on an absolute, but on a relative value, it also proved to me exactly what you just said.

You know what I would have done?

I would have helped her pat it out.

I probably would have patted her on the back and she would have said, you know, oh my god, both my parents died this year of cancer and I and I would have went, oh my God, I'm so sorry to hear that.

And I would have kept on walking, right?

Because I wouldn't have known what to say.

So relative value of that experience really, really touched me.

Not nearly as much as absolute value, because I'm still moved uh what when I think about you know how how sweet and wonderful and innocent and authentic and true uh those those kids were on that in that moment.

You know, but but uh yeah, relative value and it and it really, it really like wouldn't it be nice to know when June called me up one time.

I go, hey June, how's it going?

And then I went, Oh my god, you idiot.

She's dying of cancer.

You can't ask her how's how's it going?

What a dummy.

Like, what do you how do you think it's going?

She's gonna die.

You're not, she you're an idiot, right?

And she was and she goes, Oh, I'm good.

Anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02: Yep.

SPEAKER_00: Right?

SPEAKER_02: Yep.

SPEAKER_00: And so, oh, wouldn't it be nice to be able to go?

You know what?

If I'm really there for them in a true authentic way, and if I'm really just present and I'm just me and I'm just allowing them to be them, isn't it?

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to know that so that we could just settle into whatever the dynamic is and not worry about all that grown-up BS stuff that limits us from being ourselves or from being authentic or from for being what the other person needs?

Wouldn't it be great to know?

Like just yeah, just let me see what's inside of your head for one second to make sure I'm cool and that you're cool with what's going on, and then we can relax and enjoy each other.

SPEAKER_03: Exactly, exactly.

I mean, think about it.

A kid, kid walks up to another kid.

Oh, you have cancer, you're dying.

Okay, you want to go play?

Right.

You know what I mean?

You know what I mean, though?

You know, and and think about it like that is how we should treat each other.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: And and coming from the perspective of me who, you know, became blind.

And and I've had those people, I still have those people 18 years later, who I meet, who they stumble over their words because they want to say something about what the words see or or saw, and they they get all they get all choked up, they don't know what to talk about.

And and and I always just kind of laugh and I tell them, you know, don't worry about it, you know, I'll see you later, you know.

And you know, but but it is, it's just the truth of it is just remember, like, stop worrying about offending people and be real.

SPEAKER_00: If you're being authentic and true and want to be present, right?

I mean, honestly, uh Kevin, how many times?

And I I'm sorry if this has never happened to you, but a lot of people I've talked to, right?

Oh my God, I went blind, and they're like, oh my God, I took my dog to the vet and he got something in his eye, and I thought he was gonna be blind.

And you're like, did you literally just tell me about your dog when I was right?

I mean, it's like, what?

SPEAKER_03: Oh, dude, you you don't even know how many of those stories, or or it's the oh my gosh, I know I had to go get you know new eyeglasses too, because mine I couldn't see as well.

You know, I know exactly what you mean.

Oh maybe not quite so much, but you know.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like, oh my God, you know, oh, your your husband died of cancer.

Oh my god, that's so tragic.

You know, when I was six, my great-grandmother had cancer and died when she was 97 years old.

I so know what you're going through.

No, you don't.

Shut up, dude.

SPEAKER_03: What the more we talk, the more I realize how screwed up people really are.

Like, what is wrong with us in society that we that we respond the way we do?

SPEAKER_00: I know.

I know.

It's so it is real, it's totally ridiculous.

But what is more of the case?

What is more of the case is what you said earlier is we want to avoid each other because we don't know what to say, right?

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: It's very isolating.

One of the themes in most, if actually one of the themes in all of the stories at different levels of severity was abandonment.

Uh right, abandonment.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Because people, good friends, good friends didn't know how many times have you heard somebody that's engaged and somebody goes through something traumatic and the other person goes, it's not my life.

Okay.

Or accidental, like what we've been talking about uh this whole time, which is I don't know what the hell to say, so I'm not gonna say anything.

And I'm just gonna disappear because I can pretend in my own head that it's right to disappear because I at least I'm not making them feel bad with saying something stupid.

So abandonment and then also uh some amount of self-isolation.

So it really is, you know, the person that has the trauma or had or is or is going through a trauma, they feel guilty.

You want to bring people down, you don't want to put yourself out there if people don't accept you the way with the severity of what the way you feel about something.

You don't want to have other people uh look puppy dog eyes at you, right?

There's a lot of reasons why people self-isolate.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: And so what I wanted to try to do with these stories was to bring in, like, I can't know Kevin, I can't know what it's like to go blind.

I I there's no way I could understand that.

And if we sat down and talked about it for 100 hours, I still couldn't really understand it.

But what I might understand is as you're going through something traumatic or have gone through something traumatic, maybe in relation to when you were a kid, you were super gregarious, and maybe something happened that was a trauma, either a positive or negative trauma, that is stuck in your brain and really affects your ability, your inability to kind of navigate some emotional aspect of your current situation.

And it's like, geez, you know, if I could get some insight into that, if I could understand you a little bit more, if I could let you know that I'm here for the real you, then maybe that allows us to connect on a different level.

And that's that that's why I wanted to bring these stories, because I could identify perhaps with being raised in a violent household, or I could identify with being the kind of guy that got into trouble because I was trying to please other people, or I could identify with trauma.

I might not be able to identify with what it's like to face death with cancer.

But with if I can identify with your trauma as a reader, then I might be able to go, oh, I get some insight into what's going on in their mind.

And just to finish my little ramble, if I think you need help, maybe at the moment, and I go, hey, Kevin, can I help you with this?

And you go, no, no, no, no, I'm totally fine.

Well, in my head, now I go, Well, is he totally fine because he's totally fine?

Or is he totally fine because he doesn't want to burden me?

Or is he totally fine because if he does ask me and I say no, I'm gonna be the last person that can he can handle that that didn't come through with their offer of help when he said yes, I could use it, right?

I or uh or a hundred other reasons.

And so that's what I that's the bridge I want to try to capture.

You know, that I want to get get us get us connected on that kind of that that topic.

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.

And it does, it does, and and it's I love it because it's such an important topic that doesn't get talked about.

Right.

You know, it it's it's it's kind of like you talked about earlier, you know, is it's easy when we're talking about things like cancer, it's easy to talk about the the raising money for you know the awareness or you know what to to do this or you know, wearing, you know, wearing pink, or you know what I mean, whatever it is.

It's easy to do stuff like that, but to really talk about the real stuff that affects not only the people with cancer, but all the people who ever come in contact with them is a much deeper level thought that I just I don't hear it being discussed as much as it should be.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: So I love that you're you know bringing this to light.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks.

I mean, I thank you.

I appreciate that.

I had some really inspiring, wonderfully moving, evocative stories of of people, and and they they let me into their hearts and really told me, you know, deep stuff.

And I, you know, you know, each each person I spoke to, if not multiple times, at least several times, said to me along the way of our of our interviews, hey, I'm gonna talk about something I've never really talked to anybody else about.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And some of those not really talking to somebody else about were benign.

And some of those not really talked to somebody else about were like, oh, I walked in on my mom killing herself.

SPEAKER_02: Wow.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, that that there you go.

See, now it now that you told me that, I kind of understand why you won't ask for help.

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Because all you've ever done has been abandoned your whole freaking life.

I mean, oh my God.

Like I can like now I understand.

When you say you're fine, and I think, well, geez, what?

What?

Why is he that cold?

Why doesn't he accept my help?

What what oh I'm gonna make it about me because yeah, I didn't like your response to my offer to help.

Oh, guess what?

It's not about me.

Maybe it's about you.

And every time you think about somebody helping you, it brings you back to a time when you needed help and nobody was there.

SPEAKER_02: Yep.

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: And if you just told me that, can I tell you a super quick story, Kevin?

I was getting interviewed by a guy on a podcast, and and and after we were done, he he said, Oh my God, he says, I gotta tell you this story.

And I go, What?

And he said, I had this friend, he just died recently from cancer.

He goes, and he he would come to that, come to the house when he was filling up for it, or I'd go to his house when he was filling up for it.

And like we'd get together and like eat a pizza and drink a couple of beers and watch whatever sport was on the TV.

And it's like every time I tried to talk to him about something serious, like like on a deep level, it's like he made sure the conversation went somewhere else.

He goes, I feel really bad I wasn't able to kind of crack that code with him.

And I said, fair, and I'm not gonna tell you it's not a valid thought, but let me add one more thought to that.

He goes, What?

I said, What if you were the only person that he didn't have to be all heavy with?

What if you were the only person that he could eat pizza, drink beer, and watch a baseball game with that wasn't gonna ask him what it feels like to die?

What if you're the only one that didn't puppy dog eye him?

What if you're the only one that gave him a safe space to just be for a minute?

He goes, Wow, you think I did that?

I go, I don't know, but it's just as possible as the other.

Right?

Wouldn't it be cool if you could go back in time and go, dude, are we not talking because I'm the only guy you don't have to talk about this heavy stuff to?

Because I'm cool with that.

Or are you not talking because like you think I don't want to talk about because I'm here for you?

Like, right?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

I oh my gosh, I I love that so much because, dude, I can relate to that so much in my own life, in my own journey, is sometimes, you know, when when something is different about us, when we go through trauma, we live it every single day, day in, day out.

It doesn't matter what hour the day it is, it's in our face.

And so sometimes you want that person who can just make you feel normal again, who makes you forget that there's something different about you.

It makes you realize and takes you back to how life was, and and it is, and it and I think again, such an important life lesson in us realizing when we're there for somebody, be there for them in the capacity that that they needed, you know.

SPEAKER_00: Well, if we can figure it, but Kevin, it takes guts to be able to find that out.

Yes, it takes gut, it takes you the courage to say, dude, I want to be normal for one second, so stop it.

Like literally leave me alone, right?

Yes, or for you to say for them to say, Look, man, I am I burning you with this stuff because I'm just as good just talking about like what's going on with you know, freaking the next top model or what what you know what uh you know what I'm saying?

Like, yeah, like I I I don't know what the answer is, but wouldn't it be nice if we could feel empowered to be able to start those these hard conversations?

Wouldn't that be nice?

SPEAKER_02: And yes.

SPEAKER_00: And it's not just between strangers, Kevin.

In fact, oftentimes it's it's not, it's between the people that are closest to us, and and and it's understandable because we're send we're ultra sensitive to having watched somebody having having gone through trauma or going through trauma.

We're extra sensitive to not want to see them be more hurt.

So that prevents us from kind of having these hard conversations.

So I think it really it's not like how do I interact with a stranger better, which which is a wonderful thing to do, by the way, is to learn how to interact with with strangers in a in a better way.

But more importantly, how do I interact with the people that are important to me in my life in a way that allows me the safety to have hard conversations both both ways?

You know, the the traumatized or the witness of the trauma.

How can we empower ourselves to have these hard conversations so that we can really just get on to the being being connected to each other?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

So so I have to ask you more about the book and in relation to what we're talking about is what what I what I'm curious to ask you is most people, I would think, would say, you know what, I have this topic that I want to write a book on.

It's been kind of sparked by what I've gone through in my own life, you with your sister.

And so they would write about their story and they would write about what they've learned about it.

What compelled you though to be like, you know what, I'm gonna take it a step further and I'm gonna put my own thoughts into this book, but I'm also gonna truly get the stories of strangers going through this from all different perspectives.

Like, like, was that was that right off the bat what you knew the book would be, or did it kind of develop into what it is?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it kind of developed a little bit more into what it is because I went into it saying, okay, look, I want different ages, different types of cancer, uh, one and done, had it, had it 10 times, whatever.

I wanted caregiver, doctor, patient, loved one, survivor.

And then I want a different emotional responses to the cancer.

And why I want a different emotional response to the cancer is because how am I to say how people should feel about whatever trauma they had?

Right?

I I kind of look at some of my traumas in my life, and some of them affect me so much people would be like, dude, like get over it.

Right.

But my emotional response to it is what it is.

And there's other traumas in my life that I laugh at, and people look at me and they're like, oh my God, that's like the worst thing I've ever heard.

Right.

And I just laugh at it.

So how am I to judge what the emotional response is?

And and it turned into a little bit of what you alluded to, which is when I got deeper, I realized what was more important to me is not trauma A to B.

A, when you encounter cancer and B today, and how did you or how were you not able to navigate the emotional side?

But more how was that dynamic about the emotional facet of A to B in relation to all that trauma that happened before A?

Because I can't really understand, like we were talking just a minute ago, I can't understand Kevin's trauma.

But what I might be able to understand is some of the things that happened before point A for you that maybe had a substantial effect on your emotional well-being or not, you know, your your emotional wreckage that I might be able to identify with.

And that would give us some common ground to go, oh, okay, that I get.

And so it kind of evolved into that thing, right?

Which says, hey, there's more to what's going on with me than just what you see of point A to B.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: And honestly, I can tell you super quick.

I don't know if you were able to listen to Patricia's story, but Patricia's story really gets me because when I went into the book, I asked a question.

Like when I went into her interviews, one of the first people I interviewed, I asked her, I go, oh, so I only know like very, very little about your story.

I go, but well, you know, if you were to tell me, you know, what what what's your me, you know, what's what's the meaning of life?

Well, you know, how do you go through what you've gone through?

She goes, Well, you know what, David?

I get up out of bed, I put my feet on the floor, I turn around, I make my bed, and I go about my day.

She said, and sometimes my day is lay back in bed because I got no more energy.

But sometimes I get to go about my day.

But that's my that's my goal.

That's that's how that's my outlook on life.

And I just roll my eyes internally, and I'm like, really?

That's like the lamest thing I've ever heard.

I mean, did you find that on a postcard, right?

Like, you know what I'm saying?

I've had a bumper sticker.

And so, so then I went, okay, but yeah, all right, whatever.

Well, let me get into that a little bit deeper.

And I go, okay, well, she's had cancer five different times.

And we talk about that.

And it's like, wow, that's kind of an interesting story.

Like the cancers, it's like how you go through that.

But I'm probably not going to have cancer five different times in my life.

So maybe I don't really, it doesn't really resonate with me.

There's got to be more.

So I really go to find out that she falls in love with this wonderful man who ends up being by her side for this whole thing just a couple of months before her first diagnosis.

And I think to myself, now that is something that I can move me, I that really could give me another flavor to her story, is to understand what it must have been like for her and for him, having a lot of their life be defined by her cancer, but just the amount of true love and support and wonderful and all the ups and downs that might have happened because of what they've gone through together in the backdrop of their, you know, undying and everlasting love for each other.

I thought, wow, now that gives me something I can kind of identify with.

But then I go to find out through more inquiry and more inquiry that shortly before she met her husband, she had escaped like Julia Roberts in sleeping with the enemy style from a four-year brutally abusive, physical, emotional, psychologically deranged man.

Beat her up, just just it was the most horrible thing you've ever heard when you hear about the details.

And she was able to escape that and find somebody and learn how to love and learn how to be loved.

And also now being that uh traumatized, that unsure, or that like like the backdrop of how could you love somebody or how let somebody love you after what you've been through, and now you're gonna put them through a lifetime of cancer.

That to me is a story where I'm just like, whoa, that hits me over the head.

And when she says to me, David, my life is like, look, we all go through the barrel, we've all had our bad times.

She goes, but man, I'm telling you, with what I've been through, not just the cancer, mind you, Kevin.

She goes, but what I've been through, you know what?

You know, I get through every day, David.

I put my feet on the ground, I get up, I make my bed, I go about my day.

Sometimes I lay back in bed because I I don't have the strength to do anything more.

But that's what I'm gonna do every day because I'm so grateful for the life that I have.

And I'm just like, now I understand what that means.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: Do you know?

And that's what what developed, that's what this book developed into was this kind of like, what's behind it?

What's what's the what's the level that can touch me?

What's the level that I can get something out of?

And when I look at her, I don't look at her as a person that went through cancer five times, and I don't look at her with sympathy about what she's put her husband through.

I look at her, this amazing woman who, above all odds ever, still had an optimistic view, still learned how to love, let herself be loved, and allowed that to overshadow the just nonsense she went through her entire life with the cancers and everything else related to it.

Because I just I feel that her strength and her ability to love and be loved and and the the openness and the safety that she felt to be that that I could feel.

SPEAKER_03: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03: It does 100%.

SPEAKER_00: So each each one of the stories is is kind of that.

So it's not really a cancer book, it's it's more a book about connection and trauma and how we how we all learn how to how to deal with how how how do I sit down with Kevin and be a friend or a or a loved one and and not yes, you know, see him for how I see I see this one little trauma that that he endures every day.

SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.

So how did you how did you select these 15 people?

SPEAKER_00: Uh by hook or cook.

SPEAKER_03: Cause like yeah, because I mean I'm just sitting here thinking to myself, like, my goodness, I mean I mean, to find people not only willing to to talk with you, but to really get open and share parts of their life that they don't share with anyone.

How in the world did you find these people?

And in in yeah, I'm just super curious about that.

SPEAKER_00: Sure.

Well, to be fair, Kevin, I'm not a professional, right?

So uh some people I wasn't able to get them to open up.

Of course.

And some people weren't able to open up to me.

So not everybody I found.

And every once in a while I I got into a story where I'm just like, I'm sorry about it.

I don't know that there's anything we can really shoot.

I mean, the stories inspire when it, but but honestly, it's like, it's like I just can't wrap my brain around what those added perspectives are that we can learn from.

So I called cancer centers, I called hospitals, I asked friends, I asked friends of friends.

I I I did everything I could do to say, hey, I'm looking for whatever.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: You know, I remember calling up uh the Moffitt Cancer Center in Tampa, Florida.

So I'm I'm in LA at the time.

That's where I live.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: And I call up the Moffitt Cancer Center in Florida, and I, whatever their community development or I don't remember what area.

And they go, Yeah, can we help you?

And I go, Yeah, my name's Dave Richmond.

I'm writing a book about the emotional journeys of cancer.

Do you have any interesting stories?

They're like, Yeah, we're like a comprehensive cancer center that takes care of thousands of people a year, and every one of their stories is interesting.

What the hell?

unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, okay, what I'm looking for, and I'd get a little bit deeper into it, and then they'd go, hmm, maybe you should talk to so-and-so.

So I'd call up so-and-so, and I'd and I'd say, you know, my date, my name's Dave Richmond.

Here's my project.

Are you interested in talking to me?

Sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't.

And then as we got into it with everybody that obviously that ended up in the book, um, we ended up finding this magical partnership where I was able to ask him the right questions, and that that allowed them the permission or the safety to give me the true answers.

And and it was a really wonderful, it was a wonderful process and and truly enlightening.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, truly, truly.

So now this though is the part that I find fascinating is because what you're doing with that, I mean, is so cool, so amazing.

But the fact that you take it a step way further, the fact that I guess you said to yourself, you know what?

I'm getting outside of the virtual world and I'm gonna go see these people.

And so, okay, most people would say, All right, let's back up the car, let's hop on an airplane.

Instead, you hop on a bicycle, and you and you cycle across the country, what, nearly 5,000 miles to meet all of these people?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's so funny.

It started out as a gimmick, Kevin.

It started out as a gimmick.

I'm sitting in the in at the house and I'm like, oh, well, we're all connected by story and we're connected by emotion, and you know, I've got this wheel of emotions, and I got this wheel of age and perspective and whatever, and the wheel, a wheel belongs on a tire and a tire on a bike, and I go, oh, it's just the whole cycle of life.

You know, I probably was watching Lion King with my kids or something or whatever.

And then you know those old-timey movies where like somebody would fly like from Africa to Japan and then Japan to Alaska, and they'd have this red line that would follow.

You know what I'm talking about?

Well, if we're connected by emotion or connected by well, why don't I be that red line?

Why don't I be the thread that ties all these stories together?

So, how could I do that?

I'll just bike to all the people.

Like, and and and that'll be the thread that ties the stories together.

And so I had met maybe only two or three of the book participants prior to the bike ride.

A couple of them weren't along a possible route, so I couldn't meet them.

But yeah, I I left LA, went Los Angeles to San Diego, then over to through Arizona, up to New Mexico, down through Texas, which I zigzagged in Texas a bit, and then along the panhandle, uh southern states along the panhandle to Florida, turned right, went down to Tampa, Florida, went then went across Florida to Orlando, just north of Orlando, and then zigzagged my way up the coast to New York City.

And so the book itself is the 15 stories, but in between each story is a brief narrative that is a combination of the bike ride, the people I met on the bike, and you know, my like emotional journey of grief around my sister and some of the ancillary issues there.

But those stories, the the transitions, the thread is is not quite as prominent as the stories themselves, but it just adds another another layer to it.

SPEAKER_03: Wow.

Wow.

So how long did this take you?

SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm not gonna lie, it was pretty impressive.

I love it.

No, so so it was crazy.

I I originally took eight weeks.

I was gonna say eight weeks.

Okay, but I was just changing jobs at the time.

And the people that were that were that hired me, I told them I'm hey, I don't think you want to hire me because I'm getting ready to do this this bike ride.

And they go, Well, can you do it in six weeks instead of eight?

And I'm like, Yeah, okay.

So I did uh I did 4,700 miles in 45 days.

I took four days off along the way.

So the math is it's about 120 miles a day on a bike solo.

SPEAKER_03: Dude, that's that's a that's like two seconds.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's two Tour de Frances back to back.

SPEAKER_03: Wow.

Man, that is so that is just totally crazy.

SPEAKER_00: It it was crazy.

And the fact is, I only had six weeks, so I couldn't not go.

And also the hotels along the way were donated.

So cool.

If I had a if I had a hotel that was donated, that I was supposed to be there on day 14, I couldn't show up on day 15 because then every other hotel would have had to be moved.

So so I literally had to get from point A to point B, which is another kind of we I've used that analogy already, point A, point.

So it all ties together, but I had I had no choice.

I had to get from point A to point B every day.

And sometimes, another parable, sometimes I was 100% self-supported, like we sometimes go through trauma, self-supported, and sometimes I had people there for me.

And it turns out that when I had people there, I kind of needed them a little bit more than when I didn't have them there.

Because if I didn't have them there, I couldn't rely on them.

So I figured a way not to have to need them.

So you know, parallels to life and parallels to trauma and whatever.

But yeah, I I did uh 41 out of 45 days, and the longest day was 17 hours.

The the shortest day was about eight.

SPEAKER_03: Wow.

So I I'm curious to know because obviously when when you pull into town, when you're at you know, the local restaurant grabbing your click bike to eat before getting on the bike, or obviously word had to be spreading about what you were doing.

What what was the kind of reactions you got from people?

SPEAKER_00: Uh first of all, people thought I was crazy, which is probably accurate.

SPEAKER_03: Typical, typical.

I think you're crazy, but go ahead.

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: And then it's really weird, but but people might laugh that I didn't know this, but the further east I went, the more likely the person that I ran into was to pray for me.

Yes, yes, and I'm like, oh, that's a little odd.

Yeah, like why do you pray for strangers that are on right?

I'm like, okay, all right, whatever.

And also the more willing they were to help.

Yes, because I was getting flats all I was mostly on interstate, so that that added another layer of difficulty because the straightest line between towns is often the interstate, and I'm biking on next to you know 70 mile an hour, 18 wheelers and trunk drivers, and it was it was really hectic.

So so uh people were willing to help the further east I got, which was pretty funny.

But yeah, people, people, and honestly, I know that you're not gonna be surprised by this, but every single person I spoke to along the way, every single one, had had somebody touched by cancer, had had a kind of an opinion, Kevin.

Like, yeah, I didn't know what the hell to say, or I don't know what to say to people about what I'm going through or what they've gone through, or uh, geez, I don't even know.

Like, I don't even know what to do or what to say.

So everybody had some experience with that trauma, and everyone had some level of, yeah, I don't know what the hell to say.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: So it reinforced to me that the book was just not contrived in my head and was not just about my own view of this situation, but honestly, every every person I ran into.

And it it lightened the burden a little bit because I'm just like, all right, that's cool.

It's not, I'm not force feeding this down people's throats.

So lighten the burden, but it also enhanced it a little bit because I had to take this very seriously.

Because who isn't affected by if everybody I run into tells me this is something at a different degree in their life that they can identify with, then I better do this right if I'm gonna make an impact.

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: And that's why I wanted to write the stories in the most authentic, real, you know, inspiring, truthful, evocative way I could.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Any was there any people that you met along your way that not the people that you had the appointments with to meet with, but but these random people, any of them stand out like I don't know, just just out of curiosity, any that that kind of touched you that that that in your mind you you've never forgot that person?

SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.

Yeah, I'll tell you too.

You want me to tell you two?

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, please.

SPEAKER_00: Okay, so in the middle of the bike ride, I'm in Louisiana, and it's a brutal, brutal day.

I'm at the end of my day.

I have somebody with with me, uh, a friend, my my fiance at the time, my wife now.

She had flown back to take care of some business.

And I had somebody else that had flown a few days later to come come hang out with me.

And we go out, it's end of a brutal day.

And we go out to this tiny little family-owned Italian restaurant in I don't know what town in Louisiana.

Uh but anyway, we're talking about the bike ride and what our plans are, whatever.

And then the waitress says, Oh, sorry, I was overhearing you, but yeah, you know, my my uncle has cancer, and geez, I don't know what to say to him.

What do I do?

And I'm like, Wow, I don't have the answer, but tell me more, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So then the other waitress comes over and says, kind of the same thing.

And the third waitress that's working there there that night comes over and starts talking to us.

Then the owner talks to us and says, basically, everybody in my family has had or will have cancer.

It's something we just deal with and blah, blah, blah.

And I'm just like, whoa, I'm totally blown away that this is again another story of everybody's touched by it.

So at the end of the meal, the owner um says, Hey, I'm taking care of the check.

And I thought, geez, that's pretty nice because it's a little small family-owned restaurant.

She didn't have to do that.

And then I was really touched because the waitresses wanted to take a picture with me and my buddy.

And so we did, and they handed me an envelope, and there wasn't very much money in it, but that doesn't matter.

But they said, Geez, this is uh our tips from the night, and you're giving all the money to charity, so we want you to give this to your charity, and thanks for what you're doing.

Oh, and I thought to myself, here I am, this stranger, right?

That that they don't know.

I mean, what the heck?

And they're willing to give up their night's tips.

I mean, they could have second jobs, they have financial hardships, they have their own issues they're dealing with, but just some stranger that's coming through town, it's such an important topic to them that they felt compelled to give the little bit that they had, and I was just like completely blown away.

Yeah, wow, how how good are people if you give them the opportunity to be good, they're they're mostly good.

SPEAKER_03: Dude, I love that wow.

SPEAKER_00: That's one.

I'll tell you the other one, and it's kind of gonna give away the ending of the book, but I'm gonna do it anyway because it's it's a story that when when we said really early in the conversation, I flashed forward to this story, but we talked about how even if we're just a brief little passerby or in somebody's life, knowing the right thing to say or giving people a safe space can sometimes be a really monumental event in their life or your life.

And so near the very end of my ride, I didn't know how to get across, or once I got across a the George Washington Bridge, I think it was, I forget it was, I think it was the Washington Bridge, uh to New York City.

I didn't know how to how to get through the park to where I was gonna go.

I hadn't mapped that out.

And I had a bunch of people at the finish line waiting for me and I was late.

So I was a little stressed out.

And I see these two cyclists and I wait for them to finish talking and I roll up to the to one of the women and I go, Hey, can you tell me how to get to so and so?

And she's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, you do this, this, this, and this.

She goes, Oh, your jersey.

I I see you got a little sticker about cancer on your on your jersey.

And I go, Yeah.

She goes, How long have you been riding?

And I said, Well, actually, I'm like a half hour from the finish.

I started in California and and this is it.

And she's like, What?

Oh, tell me about it.

So I told her in about two minutes what's going on, and she goes, Yeah, she goes, you know, my dad died of cancer four years ago.

She goes, I bike every day almost, and every day that I bike, I think about him.

And I'm like, No way.

And the reason I'm telling you the story, Kevin, is because what we talked about earlier, uh the old me would have said, Oh my god, he died of cancer.

I'm so sorry.

Thanks for the directions.

Let me out of here.

That would have been the old me, right?

But the new me said, Hey, uh, so really, so he's a big cyclist.

And she goes, Yeah.

She goes, Oh my god, we used to cycle all the time.

Even when he got sick, we would go on on bike rides.

And sometimes we even traveled with our bikes.

And I'm like, oh my God, that sounds great.

I go, you guys were close, right?

And she's like, Oh my God, we were so close.

And he was the greatest dad ever.

And we got so much quality time together.

And I just think he's he's he was the greatest.

And I go, what made him so special?

And she goes, Oh my God, the dude had the greatest sense of humor ever.

And I'm like, how so?

And she's just lighting up.

And she goes, Well, let me tell you a story.

And I go, Yeah.

She goes, He wanted to put a smile on the faces of everybody at his funeral.

So everybody knew he was a cyclist, but he had a favorite jersey that everybody used to make fun of that had little ice cream cones all over it.

She and he said, he said to me, Hey, bury me in my ice cream cone jersey so everybody'll get a smile before I get buried.

And I'm I'm tearing up at it because I'm thinking, here's this woman who, if I hadn't learned what I had learned from all these people, I would have said, Thanks for the directions.

Sorry about your loss.

And I would have gone on about my bike ride.

Instead, I had a three-minute conversation with somebody who gave me this wonderful memory of this beautiful relationship she had with her dad, how they navigated the trauma of his cancer and his death, how now, four years later, she's so moved by the story of how her dad wanted to be buried in an ice cream cone jersey.

And it just made her have this wonderful, you know, enveloping memory of her dad.

And she was willing to share that with a stranger because I think she felt like I cared when I asked, Oh, you know, what made him funny, or why did you like him, or what was he about?

And we'll never see each other again, right?

Our paths will never cross.

But there's no way I'll ever forget that story.

And hopefully, maybe, Kevin, that had an impact on her too.

What can a true, authentic, real life connection instead of a oh, I'm sorry, let me out of this thing.

Yep.

To uh, hey, tell me more.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.

And all because somebody cared enough to be real, and somebody cared enough, and we see people you saw that woman, not as a stranger, but as another person, a friend, a person who who you can relate to, a person who is going through her own stuff, and you showed that that the the mindset, like we talked earlier, of a child of oh wow, you talk of about your dad.

Wow, you must have really loved him.

Wow, you guys must have biked a lot of instead of she's hurting inside, so I better not say anything.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, exactly.

Exactly.

You know, and honestly, thinking back on it, Kevin, I don't know that I've ever I've ever said this, but thinking thinking back on it, there wasn't one percent of me that was there to help her.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: There was no not one percent of me that thought, like, oh, I'm I'm I know something.

I'm doing I just it just was this natural, like, man, I gotta ask her what she means and whatever.

And it's like I I roll away from that thing going, man, did she help me?

Right?

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

SPEAKER_00: I mean, how how sweet is it that she shared that with how how wonderful is it that I got a glimpse into this person's most precious, one of her most precious memories.

SPEAKER_03: Exactly.

And and and I just have to say, that right there is the key to helping somebody is to not try to help them.

Because I guarantee you that woman came away remembering that moment just as well as you remember it.

Because both of you helped each other by not trying to help anyone.

SPEAKER_00: It's really, really smart.

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, totally.

Wow, wow, so so you did this this amazing trek across across the country on bicycle.

And then you were you I I mean, obviously you were you were so busy, you couldn't have just been writing the whole time.

I mean, did you just keep notes and then compile that all together once back home to form the book?

SPEAKER_00: Well, I had the people that I had been that are in the book, the the the 15 stories, those I had been talking to for a couple of years and kept pretty deep detailed notes.

SPEAKER_02: Okay.

SPEAKER_00: So so I I along the way, I was replaying my interviews, I was thinking about their stories, I was kind of trying to develop the depth of some of the things that they told me relative to the distance of time and all this other stuff, right?

It was just letting the stories marinate, as it were.

The people that I met along the way, when I finished the ride, because because it was so organized, I had to write my day-to-day route.

When I was done, I said, Oh, this is who I saw.

I when I was done, like maybe even on the airplane back to Los Angeles, I definitely didn't ride my bike back.

But on the airplane back to that would have been extra stupid.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: I was stupid enough.

So I I actually wrote down, I went, Oh, day one was 110 miles.

Uh, let me write my thoughts about how hot it was, who I met along the way.

Oh, yeah, well, I met this dude that did this and this.

And and I I I'm thankful that I did that because I would have forgot some of the people I met because they were just super quick and passing, but but that's how I did it.

So then I just I kind of organized the stories in a way, the 15 stories in a way that would allow me to kind of parallel the people that I met and the lessons that I learned.

The book's not pre-tier prescriptive, right?

It doesn't give any answers, it just makes you think, hopefully.

And so I wanted it to kind of all flow together.

And so so yeah, I'm really glad I wrote all those details down because they really, I think, add a couple of different uh levels of flavor to the to the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.

So I'm just out of my own curiosity, so how long was it after your sister passed away that this book was published?

SPEAKER_00: So she passed away in 2007.

It was about eight years, eight or nine years, about eight years.

So I went on the bike ride in 2016.

So it was five years ago.

Yeah, five years ago.

So the book came out in 20, very, very late 2020.

So yeah.

So about about 10, 12 years till the book came out.

I started working on the project about uh five or six years after she she passed away.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah.

Wow, wow, wow.

David, you know, man, what what I love about you, what I love about this story, and what I love about just getting to talk to you is the overall message that this book, the story that you're sharing, this podcast we're recording, it's more than just about people having cancer.

It's about people interacting with people, no matter what somebody's going through, just remembering the importance to treat them like there's nothing wrong.

And I just I'm so I'm just so thankful.

I'm so just enlightened with with with this.

And because because I'll be honest, when when when me and you sat down to record this today, I expected it to be about a guy who wrote a book about cancer.

SPEAKER_00: I know that's my that's my fault.

I'm I'm a bad marketer, man, but give me talking.

SPEAKER_03: But but but no, but that's what's amazing about it because that's how we begin to flip the script with the world, with the way we think about stuff.

Is it's not about cancer, it's not about me going blind, it's not about this happening to that person or whatever.

It's about how we interact with one another.

That's what it's about.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very well said.

I mean, right, we're all human, right?

And it's not the things that happen to us, it's the way we react to them, it's the way we deal with them or not deal with them.

And honestly, I mean, I think I think this only because I've seen it and I've talked to enough people about it.

I don't know this, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

Is that if we're lucky enough to get to the end of our lives, Kevin, that and reflect, if we're lucky enough to do that, to be able to reflect, right?

Then we go, okay, well, the things that give me the most joy and the greatest satisfaction was the deep relationships that I've had with those people that cared about me and that I cared about.

On the flip side of the other side of the coin is the only thing I regret in life, yeah, pretty much maybe a few things I didn't do, but really the people I didn't form a deep connection with or that abandoned me that or that I was mean to or that treated me like crap or whatever, right?

I mean, we really, I mean, I think it's at the heart of who we are as human beings is just wanting that human connection and not, yeah, we want to be around people like us sometimes, but sometimes we don't.

And you know, it's it we're all just human.

We're all we're all just human.

And and uh, you know, so I love the way you said it, but yeah, it's it's not about it's not about the items that are defining us, it's about the fact that we're humans and we have emotions and we all just want to connect at a deeper level, not with everyone, but with the people we care about and they care about us.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.

Exactly.

I love it, absolutely love it.

David, where can somebody find Cycle of Lives if they're if they're wanting to dive deeper into our conversation by actually reading your book?

SPEAKER_00: Well, that would be great or listening to it.

SPEAKER_03: Yes, exactly.

Yes, in my case, I highly recommend the Audible version.

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.

So, yeah, anywhere books are sold.

My website is cycleoflives.org.

The reason it's.org is it's a nonprofit, so all the proceeds that come in go out to the cancer-focused charities and other charities that were chosen by the people in the book.

So those are listed in the book.

They're also listed on the website.

And so anywhere books are sold, Amazon, you know, you want the Audible, go to Audible, Barnes and Noble, wherever your local bookstore, wherever books are sold, or if you want to sign a copy, you go to psychollifes.org and I'll sell you one directly and send it out.

I got to add the shipping because I'm not Amazon, but but I'll sign it and write a little note and you can rest comfortable to know that maybe you might be inspired to learn something from these people's stories.

And or hey, a couple of pennies go to, it's more than a couple of pennies, but but you know, some some amount of money goes to uh support these these great charities.

SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.

Well, fantastic.

Well, well, I will be sure that in the uh the episode show notes that there are links to to you know to your website and to some other you know avenues where people can can have easy access to your book.

David, sincerely, I want to thank you so much for for being a guest on my podcast, for sharing your story, the sharing the little bit of the story of your sister, and then of course the the story of your book.

I appreciate your time and and uh and you just sharing all of this with me and my audience so much.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks.

And thanks for what you're doing.

You know, I mean your story is inspiring, but that's not what defines you.

And I think more the little bit I know about you, what defines you is your ability to bring great stories and connect with people and and you know, kind of get to the deeper levels of the human experience.

And it's it's really it's really moving.

So keep doing what you're doing, man.

Do not give it up.

SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.

Well, thank you.

And for you listening today, you know, David's just another one of those people who I've had this pleasure of meeting that if it wasn't for this podcast, I never even would have had a chance to meet.

And that's what's amazing because this podcast gives me the opportunity to not only let me meet these amazing people, but bring their stories to you because it's the people we meet and the experiences we have along the way that make this life worth living.

And I just want to be sure that you find that your life is worth living, and I'm hoping that this podcast to inspire you to live it.

And that's the lowdown with Kevin Lowe.

I hope today's episode inspired you, motivated you, and excited you to get out and enjoy life, no matter what obstacles may be standing in the way.