The True Meaning of Life is Found on The Trail with Ethan Gallogly

More specifically, the trail.

The John Muir Trail.

A trail spanning 211 miles through the Sierra Nevada.

But the beginning and the ending are irrelevant without all the steps taken in between.

And that's kind of the case with life.

Because it doesn't matter where we started or where we end.

What matters is all the experiences had and relationships made along the way.

Because this life, it's meant to be lived.

And this podcast is meant to inspire you to do it.

Hey, welcome back to the podcast.

My name is Kevin Lowe, the host here on The Lowdown with Kevin Lowe.

And today I'm bringing you episode 80.

When I went blind a little over 18 years ago, at the age of 17, to be honest, I thought life was over.

Because how could a life with no sight be any comparison to the life I had had?

And to be honest, for a long time I wrestled with that because it wasn't.

I hated this life so much.

But eventually I would come to realize that even without sight, this life, this world was meant to be lived.

And lucky for me is that through time I realized how much more of this life of this world I actually see now that I can't see at all.

Because it seems like oftentimes we forget about all of our other senses because the world is made up of more than just what our eye can see.

Of course, the sights are important, but it's the sounds, the smells, the taste, the feel, the overall experience that makes this world so amazing.

And the interview that I'm about to bring you today is gonna really hit home with this.

Because to his students, Ethan Galogly might just be another college professor.

But the truth is, he's an author, he's a lover of adventure.

He's the guy who loved those books you read as a kid that made your imagination run wild.

And well, now as an adult, as a published author of a novel called The Trail, Ethan gives us the opportunity to have our imagination run wild as we dive into a phenomenal novel that he has written.

If you're into hiking, if you're into the outdoors, or if you're into just gaining a greater appreciation for life, this is the episode for you.

I of course do have to tell you one thing.

Any good hiker knows that you've gotta take care of your feet.

You've gotta keep your feet dry, you've gotta keep them looking good, feeling good.

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But here on the podcast, we worry about stuff like that.

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That's all capital letters, all one word, L-O-W-E-D-O-W-N 10, or make your life simple and just look at the episode show notes and use the special link provider.

All right, whether or not you're rocking crazy socks like I am, I think it's time for me to introduce you to today's guest as we embark on the trail.

SPEAKER_01: I've been backpacking or hiking since the 80s when I moved out to California to graduate school, and I just discovered the Sierra, this great playground in my backyard.

And I got hooked on backpacking at an early time.

And I've been there have been some years where literally every weekend I was out and in the mountains and camping, and that's become a huge part of my life.

But, you know, you have to pay the bills.

So I'm also I'm also a teacher, professor.

I teach chemistry.

I'm I'm down in the Los Angeles area, and I've got a chemistry textbook that's doing quite well.

That was kind of my first exploration into writing and learning, learning the art of putting together a book, although a novel is very, very different.

And I love, I love teaching.

Teaching is is very rewarding.

I'm very passionate about it.

And I also love the fact that it affords me the time in summer to go on these extended trips, to do things like the John Muir Trail, which is a 211 or 220, depends how you figure it, trip.

You know, it's a backpacking trip or a trail.

That's a trail.

But if you're gonna hike 211 miles, you need a good solid month of time.

And teaching gives me that opportunity as well.

So, you know, I balance these things.

And after I wrote the textbook, I found I really love writing.

And so, you know, writing a novel, but took me some five years, but it was very natural for me.

I I loved the process of writing and and creating.

So, I mean, you know, I've got a family and all that, but that's that's pretty much who I am.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, no, I I think that's awesome.

That that's so awesome.

So now I'm curious as far as hiking, when when you really got into hiking, because goodness knows, I I I mean, I I would consider you uh a pretty uh experienced hiker with all the trails that you have traversed.

What about hiking appealed to you?

Because I mean, there's a lot of different things if you want to get out in the woods, mountain biking, for instance.

But what about hiking specifically, you know, really appealed to you?

SPEAKER_01: Well, I think there are a couple of aspects.

I first got into hiking and backpacking when I moved out to California and I took this trip with a friend to Yosemite, and I just saw the granite walls, the mountains, the waterfalls, the the half dome.

I mean, everything in that park was on such a grand scale and so amazing.

You know, I left the park and I said, you know, I want to climb half dome, I want to get off the road, I want to see the wilderness.

And I'd seen people backpacking, and I said, you know, I'm gonna give that a try.

So done some hiking, I'd done some camping as a kid, but Yosemite just called to me in a way that was incredible.

And I got myself a book on backpacking and I learned how to backpack.

I got a backpack at the Berkeley REI, I got fitted out.

Now, this this was the 80s, so it was an external frame.

Everything was much heavier than it probably needed to be.

But the next year I went in with a friend, and the two of us took a 10-day trip.

My very first backpack was 10 days.

We climbed Path Dome and went in through, well, basically what is the start of the Mirror Trail, although I didn't know it at the time.

And it was incredible.

And I guess for me, the difference between hiking and backpacking is I love hiking.

I love taking a walk through the wilderness, I love the peace of mind it affords.

But when you backpack, there's a difference.

When you hike, you know, when you take a day hike, in the back of your mind is always, okay, I've got to get back to the car and I've got to get home.

And what am I doing for dinner?

And, you know, what do I have to do tomorrow?

But when you backpack, you put all that stuff down.

You know, what are you doing tonight?

Well, you're setting up your tent and you're gonna look at the stars and you're gonna maybe sit around a fire, talk with your friends, and that's it.

That's the only thing you've got to do.

So there's a clearing of the mind, there's a putting down of the worries, there's just a freedom of time that comes with backpacking that lets you absorb your surroundings and reflect in a way that you don't do as naturally anyway for me on a day hike.

And so I really got hooked on backpacking because of that sense of peace and relaxing from everything I had to do and just being present in the moment in the wilderness in these amazing settings.

So, you know, for me, that became the thing.

And that's why, you know, when I was in graduate school, I got out quite a bit on the weekends because, you know, graduate school was very intense.

And backpacking was that release, that clearing of the mind, that processing of ideas that really, really balanced things for me.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Oh my goodness.

Well, I I totally love that.

And I love this whole kind of comparison that you've just provided between hiking and backpacking.

And I, and I just I love that.

And I think to myself, like, how that's so relatable to like different aspects of life, but but this thing of of freeing the mind of it is truly where it's like when you set out on this backpacking adventure, you know the woods is your home.

You're not in this rush, like you said, to to worry about getting back to the car or anything like that.

I think that's such a really cool concept to think about.

So that that's awesome.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: And it and just to add to that thought of yours, everything you need is on your back.

It's not like you have a lot of worries.

You know, I see people car camping where they're unpacking everything and repacking everything into the car.

And, you know, there's a lot of gear.

And I love car camping.

But there's something about having everything you need with you and the simplicity of backpacking that's also very, very appealing to me.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no doubt.

No doubt.

So now how long did it take for the time when you when you really started enjoying backpacking to when you started doing these long hikes, especially when we start talking about the JMT?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so most of my backpacking trips, and and I think I want to caution anyone listening that please do not dive into long-distance backpacking.

Start slow, start with weekends, because you're gonna make mistakes.

I made tons of mistakes.

That first trip, I went in with a 75-pound pack, which is ridiculous.

You know, when when I look at it now, I've gotten my gear down to under 20 pounds with without food and water.

So, you know, I was carrying 75 pounds of food, water, and gear on my back going into that first trip.

And people would be miserable carrying that kind of weight on a long distance trip.

You you'd quit, and you wouldn't get the sense of it that you could if you had less weight.

So, or you might forget some critical item.

I mean, you you look at the book I wrote, and Gil does that, right?

He's he's got all the wrong meals, he's he's he hasn't brought a jacket, and that gets him in trouble.

He forgets the water filter.

I mean, there's a lot of things that go wrong for Gil on a first trip, which, if you've got some experience, are preventable.

But for me, you know, I started out, I did a 10-day, which was a little crazy.

In retrospect, I probably should have done a weekend trip, but I was ambitious.

And the longest trip I had done for many years was probably 12 days.

I'd taken a trip from the west side of the Sierra to the east across the Great Divide, and that was about the furthest I'd done, the biggest trip.

So when I was turning 50, I knew of the existence of the John Muir Trail, and I just said to myself, you know, I'm not gonna necessarily be able to do this later on.

I don't know.

I mean, now I I think, yeah, anybody, you know, in any age, if they're fit, could do it.

But I said to myself, I want to do this long distance trail.

And I had never done something that that takes a month like that.

But that in in 2016, that was my first long distance hike.

And it was transformational.

It it was so different from doing a weekend or even a 10-day trip.

It was really a different animal.

And and and, you know, it was fantastic.

For many, many days after that, many days, many months after that hike, I could not get that trip out of my head.

Being out in the wilderness for that long really, really changes you in it in a good way.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

So now, did you do that hike solo or were you with friends?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I have done some extended solos since then.

I did the Theodore Solomon's Trail, which parallels the Muir Trail and is a much rougher trail.

There's a lot of bushwhacking, it's much more difficult.

And I did half of that solo.

But the John Muir Trail, I did, it's hard to find a friend who's got a month off and wants to go backpacking.

It's pretty challenging.

But my friend Joey, I've got a very good friend who backpacks, he was willing to join me for two weeks.

That's what he could get off.

And my wife, who also enjoys nature and backpacking, also gets a two-week vacation.

So we set it up where Joey joined me from Yosemite to uh Le Cante Canyon about halfway through for the first two weeks.

And then my wife came in on horseback with this nice outfitter, uh, rainbow pack outfitters up in Bishop.

They brought her in on horseback with another friend of mine from work, and they came in, they brought in the resupply.

I just couldn't ask her to carry all our food and everything by herself up over Bishop Bass.

So she she horsed in with the resupply.

And then Joey rode out on the same horses.

So we had an exchange, and my wife joined me for the second half of the trip, and and you know, the whole thing was amazing.

But I I never left the wilderness for that that month, that 28 days basically.

SPEAKER_00: Wow.

Wow, wow, wow.

That is so so cool.

And and especially because I think to myself, like, how awesome that I mean, not only that you got to do it for yourself, but the fact that by splitting it up, you got to enjoy the experience with friends and then and then your wife.

I mean, I just think that's really pretty awesome that it worked out like that.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it was amazing.

And as I said, after that trip, I could not get it out of my head.

And there are a lot of people I've spoken to who've done the JMT or other long trails, and they have exactly the same experience where sometimes for years and sometimes for your life after a trip like this, the images, the places, the people you meet, it just sticks with you in an amazing way.

I mean, that's that's what triggered writing this book was just not being able to get the trip out of my out of my mind.

SPEAKER_00: Do you feel when we talk about such a transformational trip, what do you believe gives it that transformational feel to?

Is it is it the extended time away?

Is it the destination?

What is it that you feel makes it that impactful on somebody's life?

SPEAKER_01: Well, certainly the scenery is amazing.

Certainly you're going through places that are amazing.

And the people you meet are wonderful.

I mean, people in the wilderness are relaxed, their guard is down, they're not doing that defensive, you know, thing in the office.

People really are honest and human out there, and they're sharing their lives with you.

Like, you know, in the book, you see that with the characters they meet.

Those are based on real encounters for the most part.

And the people are being honest, they're they're sharing themselves in a way that we don't tend to do in society.

So you get that human interaction, which is fantastic, but you asked about the spiritual side.

And when you're hiking, when you're walking, and you don't have anything else to do but go from point A to point B and enjoy the scenery, you become very reflective.

And you think about all kinds of things.

And very naturally you will you'll start thinking about your life, the past, the present, the future.

And I think that reflection is something we don't do enough of now in our modern society.

And in our modern world, there's just too many instant distractions.

The phone will ring, you'll check your email, you'll look at Facebook or whatever's going on.

And you get distracted from that reflection.

But when you're in nature, you really have time to reflect and think, and it is extremely helpful.

It's, I think we all need that time out.

I make the point in the book that recreation is recreation because you really take that time to recreate yourself, to recreate your spirit.

And many people, many, many people after a long-distance hike will say what transformed them was really that time to reflect, to think, to absorb.

And in some cases, you know, they realize what they're doing with their life isn't what they want to be doing.

And they have the time to process that and really think about where they want to go.

So there's a lot of inner transformation and a lot of stuff that goes on when you're taking that much time out and you're just walking.

So it's it's very spiritual in that way.

There's also an amazing sense of being connected to the universe.

You know, when you're walking through these places, when you're you're looking at these scenes and these beautiful azure lakes under open sky, you're going through the granite peaks and just the majesty of that, there's a sense of awe.

And that gives you a kind of connection to the greater universe.

I I think uh Gill in the book describes it as, you know, looking at a creation from God's workshop.

And there's really that that sense of majesty out there that I think John Muir captures best in his writing.

And you experience that as well.

That it's all transformational, Kevin.

It's really, really amazing, you know, to be in that that area.

And I think you had some of those experiences.

You had said you'd done some camping and and stuff like that with your father when you were a kid.

So you I think you must know a little bit about what I'm trying to relate here.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, oh, 100%.

100%.

That's a you know, those are some of my most fondest memories growing up are the camping trips with with my dad.

We would go for for a week at a time, we would go, and I mean, completely unplugged, you know, from from the outside world.

I mean, thank goodness back then there we didn't even have smartphones or anything like that.

I mean, the the camp we would go to had a uh a payphone that I would use to to call home and and and let mom know that I was was safe and well, you know, once during our trip.

But but it is to truly just be out there.

And I'll say that when you were talking about it, I thought to myself, it's just in today's age, you know, they call it being unplugged, you know, getting unplugged.

Well, this is like the the most like optimal moment.

Version of going unplugged, you know, because it's not just unplugging, but truly stepping outside of your comfort zone, outside of these cities that we live, and stepping into the world, into just the raw world, the way the way the world's like supposed to be, you know, this this untamed natural beauty that's just unspoiled.

And so I did, and that that's where through reading the book, I mean, I just I could connect with so much that the characters talk about and this reflection on nature.

And and it goes back to something that I love to really, you know, emphasize to people with being blind is that I feel by me becoming blind, it's given me the gift of recognizing this stuff even more, you know, of paying attention to the sounds and all of that and the feel and and everything so much more than I I believe I ever did before.

And I feel as though your book does a very, very good job at at diving into that.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I you talk about experiencing it blind.

And when you're standing up there and you close your eyes, I mean, even though it's a very visual experience, when you close your eyes, you hear that space around you.

You you can feel it with your body, you you can smell it, you can taste it on the wind.

It's like all of your senses are aware that you are out there in this wilderness environment, in nature, in the place that mankind is really supposed to be, in a sense.

It's our our birthplace, and and and you feel that expansiveness around you.

So it's a hundred percent a whole body experience.

And I can't completely imagine how you perceive it, but I do imagine that you can just feel the space about you, right?

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.

That that's what I've said, you know, is people tend to innocently, they they don't mean any any harm by it, but they feel as though and they will say things to me like, oh my gosh, Kevin, you know, I wish you could see this.

And I always tell them, you know, you don't understand.

I'm seeing it just in a different way than you.

And that's what's awesome to me about life.

That's what's awesome about nature in this world is the fact that we can all see it in our own way, you know?

And that's what I think is just beautiful about it.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: I, you know, sometimes, sometimes you're out there and you just close your eyes and and breathe in the smell of of the wilderness, the pine and the sage and just everything else, and even the water, it all has a scent, it all has a feeling.

There's a sound that you don't get in the city.

It's just the air.

I mean, you know, you you can taste being out there.

And and it's a very healthy thing.

I mean, my my wife had some breathing, some post-nasal drip kind of issues, and you know, she'd suffered from that for years.

And that two weeks on the Muir Trail, it was gone.

I mean, after that, it was gone.

I and you know, the water up there, when you drink the water, it just tastes so different from from in the city.

It's yeah, everything.

It's just pure and clean.

And then I I mean, yeah, it's it's it's an amazing experience being out there.

And I I hope everybody gets a chance, even if you you can't hike it for whatever reason, just to go to a place like Yosemite and experience being in that kind of situation, that kind of surroundings.

I mean, there's just it's incredible.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.

So I feel like this is a good point when I would love for for you to give my my audience a kind of brief synopsis on your book.

I have many more questions that I that I want to ask you, tons of questions, but I would love for the audience who I'm sure at this point they're already kind of, you know, thumbing their thumbing their fingers and thinking, okay, okay, but what is this book?

I gotta know more about it.

So would you please provide them with a brief overview of the book?

Sure.

SPEAKER_01: Do you mind if I I say a little bit about how I came to write it first?

Because I think that's that's important.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.

That's one of my questions.

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: So after that trip I took with Joey and my wife, I couldn't get it out of my head.

And I was sharing, you know, everybody I talked to, I wanted to share.

Oh, this was my experience.

And at work, you know, I talked to a few people and they said, you know, you should give a lecture on this.

You should talk to the college students and share, share your trip.

So they scheduled the lecture and I started prepping.

And, you know, I wanted to do a good job.

So I started reading about the history of the trail and statistics about the trail and all this stuff.

And the lecture got canceled.

There was, I, if I remember right, somebody else, an important person, took the slot because that was the only time they could have some guest.

So the lecture was canceled, but I'd done all this research on the history of the Muir Trail, things that I had never known.

And it was fascinating.

I mean, there were, I realized, you know, when I walked the trail, you know, I'd go up to a place like Mather Pass, but I didn't know who Mather was.

It was just a name to me.

And now I knew who he was.

I knew the history of Stefan Mather and what he'd done.

I knew a lot more about John Muir and about the early explorers like Solomon's and Brown.

And I realized there's a story here.

There's a whole bunch of history that I want to share.

But I didn't want to write a history book because there really would not be that big a demand for it, right?

I mean, the history of the John Muir Trail, I'd I'd get six or eight readers, and I probably could guess who they would be, you know, to all people I know.

So, you know, how to share this with the general public and with hikers, I realized the best way to do it would be to write a novel, to write a captivating story that brought the reader in, gave them the experience of walking the trail, and weave the history element into it.

So that was my first thought.

And it evolved over time, of course.

The book took me five years to write.

It wasn't simple.

But, you know, I got the idea that the protagonist should be first person, and it should be someone who's never backpacked or has minimal experience, so that anyone reading it will get that arch of starting out with someone who doesn't want to be there.

At the beginning, Gil, he's 27, his life is going nowhere.

His father passed away in college and he dropped out.

And now he's in LA, he's he's watching kung fu movies and just wasting his life on meaningless hookups with women he meets online, and he gets the call to adventure from Sid.

And Sid is much older, you know, he's in his late 60s, he's his Gil's late father's old hiking buddy from Berkeley, and he asks Gil if he'll join him on the trip.

And Gil doesn't really want to go, but Gil figures it's his last chance to kind of understand why his father loved hiking so much.

His father actually, as it turns out, dies on a hiking trip, and that's what triggers kind of Gil's decline.

So Gil goes, and very quickly, I'm not giving away anything here, very quickly he learns that Sid has terminal leukemia, and Sid may not survive the hike.

And, you know, Gil is traumatized by this, and he didn't want to be out there to begin with.

So Gil starts scheming in the beginning how to get off the hike.

And Gil hates it.

You know, in the beginning, his backpack doesn't fit right.

You know, he's never done this, he's got the wrong equipment, he hates the bugs, he hates sleeping on the ground.

I mean, everything that I think any listener who's never been backpacking would say, this is why I don't want to do that, right?

You know, the bugs and the cold ground and just everything in their mind about why they wouldn't want to do it, that's Gil.

He experiences all of that.

And the first couple of chapters are almost funny, right?

You're you're almost laughing at Gil and what he's going through those first few days.

But gradually, and I I don't want to give away any spoilers, gradually, Gil begins to enjoy the wilderness.

He begins to see it, it takes quite a bit of time for him, but he begins to see what his father loved about hiking, and he begins to see the things we we talked about earlier in the segment.

You know, just he begins to connect to nature.

And through the book, you see this transformation of Gil to slowly becoming a backpacker and slowly enjoying this experience.

And his relationship with Sid develops.

And they start off really at loggerheads with each other.

They're they're they're almost fighting on the way up.

But slowly, slowly their relationship blooms and and they start to converse about things like the meaning of life and mortality.

And, you know, Sid, of course, is is fearing his own death.

So, you know, that comes up, and both of them become very reflective about what life is.

So, I mean, without any spoilers, that's the general arch of the story.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, definitely, definitely.

Now, I'm curious when when you sat down to write this book, and in and I would almost be curious if you had this in mind when you started and if it stayed the same by the time the book ended.

But did you have an ideal reader in mind?

Because I will tell you that what I loved about this book is the combination of elements.

It reminded me of books that I loved as a middle school student, that I loved reading the books.

Like I think there was the book called The Hatchet, you know, where it was all in the wilderness, this, you know, boy, you know, character lost in the woods.

But so it had that element to it.

But then it also has very much more adult-age content throughout the book.

And then on top of all of that, this underlying deeper theme of the meaning of life.

And so I couldn't help but think to myself when I finished the book, who did he write this for?

Age group specific person?

Did you have that in mind?

SPEAKER_01: I wasn't thinking of an audience so much as how can I share all the aspects that this hike had for me when I was writing it?

How can I get across all the different things from the history to the philosophy?

I've I've always thought a lot about philosophy, and I actually I lived part of my life in mainland China, and I studied the language and I read the poetry.

So a lot of a lot of Sid's background actually comes from my own inquiries into the meaning of life and philosophy, particularly when I was a little bit younger.

But the I think the audience I wanted to reach was a broad audience.

I really wanted people who were going to hike the John Muir Trail or who have hiked the John Muir Trail to learn a little bit more about the history and background and maybe re-experience some of those places.

But I also want folks who would never backpack or never hike, or who would just ask, why would anyone want to do this?

To read the book, have an entertaining story, and kind of open up some questions, some thoughts about bigger topics, maybe take them somewhere they they didn't expect to go.

One of my early readers compared it to Bill Bryson's A Walk in the Woods meets Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance.

And I think that's the best.

Well, I mean, if you've read both those books, I think it's the best comparison because, you know, it's got that wilderness adventure aspect to it, a little bit of humor, but then it's also got that philosophical side.

And I mean, have you read both of those?

SPEAKER_00: I have not.

I have not.

But but just from the names of each of those, it it I kind of get the picture of what they're saying.

That's so funny.

But so I have to say, though, the other thing that I was so impressed.

And and I will preface this by saying, I kept thinking to myself, Kevin, keep in mind who wrote this book.

We're talking about a college professor.

Because the level of knowledge in a variety of subjects kind of blew my mind.

And I'm specifically talking about one part of the story where one of the characters that that they meet along their hike, their backpacking trip, is a character called Permi.

And Permi is all about the vegetation.

And you go into so much detail that I found so interesting.

And I thought, how does he even know about all this stuff?

SPEAKER_01: Permi, I think, is many of my readers' favorite characters.

He's kind of this wild 20-something year old in a tie-dyed shirt that Gil meets along the way.

And Permi is all into foraging and, you know, wild onions and sustainable agriculture, and that's his thing.

And, you know, he's a little out there too.

He's he's a little bit on the edge, but he's out there for the wilderness.

And I have met many, many folks, you know, who are very similar to Permi.

In fact, I gave a copy of this book to a friend of mine, Bob, and he read it.

And he's like, wait, did you base Permi on this friend of mine?

Do you know him?

You know, and it was just so funny because, of course, I didn't know Bob's friend, but Bob knew a Permi.

And I think a lot of backpacking readers will recognize someone they know in that character.

And Permi is a lot of fun.

The when we did the audiobook, Jake, who does amazing voices.

I I don't did you read it or did you listen to the audiobook?

SPEAKER_00: It was the audio.

The audio book was phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Jake did such a fantastic job with the narration and the voices, and he just nailed Permi's voice.

I mean, it was it was spot on perfect.

What I had in my imagination when I was writing it.

I just loved what Jake did.

In fact, the audiobook is amazing.

It adds a dimension of sound and emotion to the story, and it's it's really worth checking out.

But so the character, the background for Permi, my mother had always been into foraging wild foods, this kind of thing.

Sometimes, you know, she'd pick stuff, she'd take a class and then pick stuff randomly, and we'd have this wild salad that I've got to admit as a kid I was kind of negative on.

But, you know, greens, right, as a kid.

But growing up, I started getting into that.

And I took a class in what's called permaculture.

It's a kind of sustainable agriculture, you know, for a month up in up in Orcas Island in Washington.

So I took a class in that to learn more about that.

And I took a couple of classes, including one out in Wisconsin with Samuel Thayer, who I mentioned in the book, that was just incredible.

You know, so I weaved a lot of what I had learned in these classes into Permi's character.

So actually, I had done quite a bit of personal exploration there.

And the thing with the wild onions, that's probably the easiest thing to find in the wilderness.

There, there's just wild onions anywhere.

There's there's a swampy, swampy stream.

So, you know, you you can find those.

They're they're easily identified.

You know, there's there's a lily that's similar, but it doesn't smell like onions.

So, you know, you get the onions and you can add them to anything, and they're fantastic.

So, you know, that's why I have Permi start with onions, because it's it's really, really great.

So, yeah, no, Permi is Permi is quite the trip.

He's he's he's quite a character.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

No, I yeah, and and you're right.

I loved his character in the book.

I thought it was so awesome.

And, you know, to what you were saying about the audiobook is, you know, the audiobooks that, you know, I've listened to a lot of audiobooks since I became blind.

And I will tell you, there are some audiobooks that are okay, and there are some that are amazing.

The ones that are amazing are the ones that I feel as though I've been watching a movie.

And the way that your book has been done, turned into audio, is in my opinion, it makes you feel as though you have just watched a movie.

Because it is so amazing how, with all the different characters, this one guy doing the entire book can change his voice, do it just so perfect.

It literally just takes you into the story.

And I loved it.

SPEAKER_01: Jake is quite a talent, and we were very lucky to find Jake.

And he does the women's voices really well, too, which is amazing to me because like Rena, this this little Japanese woman, and he just nails her voice too, you know, and and you're like, wow, you know, this guy.

You know, when the book was being made into an audio book, we were given the auditions of people who auditioned for it.

And we had some 50, I want to say more than 50, but about at least 50 auditions that we had to listen to.

And, you know, we sat around listening to different people reading the same passage over and over.

And I never want to hear that passage again.

You know, it's it's stuck in my head.

But, you know, of all these folks, there were only a couple who really felt like Gil and who really nailed the other voices, who nailed Permi and the female voices.

And Jake just stood out.

He was incredible.

He's the first person we said, look, we'd we'd like to work with you.

And we discussed a contract and all that.

And it just worked out.

It was fantastic.

And I mean, there were a lot of good auditions.

I don't want to put anyone down.

There were, there were some really amazing readers, and there were some readers who were backpackers and who let us know that.

And I, you know, I I felt a great sympathy for that.

And and there were also some some people who were off.

We we had one guy who read Gill with a British accent, and that was just bizarre, you know, because you know, you just can't picture Gill going around, you know.

No, well, yes, these are I can't even do it.

But I mean, it was just, you know, it was just so not a 27-year-old guy who had who had grown up in Ohio and LA, you know, it was you know, it just it didn't fit.

But Jake did a fantastic job.

And he even hit the Irish accent, you know, like you know, like Gil's father, or Pop, as Gil calls him.

So it was amazing, and and it was great working with Jake.

And and I'm gonna send him a copy of this podcast because he'll be thrilled to hear your your comments.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, well, I I hope you do.

And I mean, uh, you know, I mean, I don't I don't want to brag, but being blind at all, I think my opinion matters a little bit more than most about the audiobooks and and um Oh, I it it it's got to.

SPEAKER_01: Your other senses increase to compensate.

So it's it's a great compliment.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.

It was it was oh, it was so, so enjoyable.

I loved it.

So now, but while we were talking about the character Permi, I have to ask you something about him.

So I'm gonna preface my question by asking, when did you finish the book?

When did I finish writing it?

SPEAKER_01: Yes or when did I finish When did you finish writing it?

I'd say about a year ago.

So it came out, the hardcover came out November 1st, 2021.

But the book was done or all but done about a year prior.

There were some details that got added later.

I mean, so in 2021, I re-walked.

The John Muir Trail with my son to confirm all the vistas, all the scenes.

And there were just, you know, I wanted it to be really authentic.

Hikers, you know, if they're out in the wilderness and they're reading this book while they're hiking, and something doesn't line up, they're going to let me know.

I'm going to get an email, you know, hey, you you can't see this mountain from here, you know.

So I wanted to make sure everything was true.

So, you know, I rewalked the trail in the opposite direction, actually, going north or nobo with my son.

He he went part of it with me.

And I just checked every vista, every scene.

And there were a couple of corrections here and there to the manuscript.

There was a little bit that got added.

But basically, prior to that hike, the story was finished.

SPEAKER_00: Okay.

Okay.

Well, I asked that because there's one part in the story where where this character that we've been talking about, this character Permi, he's talking about, you know, he he's almost one of those like, you know, preparing for like the end of the world type scenario.

SPEAKER_01: And he's a survivalist.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.

And he's talking to Gil, and he's telling Gil about, well, well, man, what if, what if, you know, the supply chain shut down and like the truck driver stopped, you know, moving the goods.

What do you think is going to happen?

And I immediately just had to laugh to myself.

And I thought, wait a minute, was this before we actually experienced this?

Or was this written afterwards?

Because that seemed very close to our reality.

SPEAKER_01: I wrote all of Permi's dialogue probably in in it was done probably by 2018.

So no, I it was all done prior to everything that's that's been going on.

But you you could see signs of this kind of stuff.

You know, you you see these these strikes and these shortages in you know in Europe a lot.

So no, some of the stuff Permi was talking about just happened to occur, and you know, it's kind of funny in that way.

SPEAKER_00: And for you who, if you've not read this book yet, just wait till you read it and you meet Permi to realize he's the smartest guy there was.

He knew what was gonna happen.

And and you'll think, and I guarantee you, you're gonna be headed to some marshland fight and use some some wild onions to get to start eating.

Yep.

SPEAKER_01: And and the thing about Permi is, as a professor, I've I've researched a lot of the different things he's worried about, the climate change and all that.

But I wanted a character who was giving this message, but who people would not back away from.

You know, so if if you've got some environmental activist who's telling you global climate change is real and we've got to worry about it, there's a certain segment of our population who are gonna hear that message and reject it and who are gonna say, I don't want to read the rest of this book because it's it's getting preachy.

But Permi is so funny and such an out there character that you can read his message either way.

You know, you you can read it as, okay, this guy's a little out there, so yeah, you know, it's kind of funny.

Or you can read it as this is serious, what he's saying.

He's he's kind of like the jester in some of these Shakespearean stories who are making fun of the king and yet they're telling the truth.

Right.

So Permi's like that court jester who, underneath his sort of comic exterior, is is really saying things that are true.

And that was very intentional in writing the character of Permi.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

So now talking about the the characters in the book, because you you include a lot of characters, because I mean, let's face it, you have these these two guys, they're you know, on this hike for a month, and they're coming across all these different people.

And that was one thing that I really enjoyed about the book because it made me think of what I enjoy about my own life, about podcasting, is is I love the chance to meet new people.

And I find that everybody has a story of their own life, and and and and people are just I I just find people fascinating.

And that's what I loved about this book because to me it really hits home to that because they meet so many different characters, and I'm gonna use the character in another, you know, kind of form of some of these are some real characters.

I mean, they're out there, they're crazy, but then you have other ones who are just you can totally picture the reality of it, of the kind of people you would probably meet.

And so I have to ask, did you experience in in real life the same type of people that these two characters met along their way?

SPEAKER_01: Yes.

Yes.

So, first, let me just echo what you're saying there.

I hadn't realized how many characters were in this book until we went to do the audio book.

You know, Jake had asked me for a little background on each character and a little, you know, what how I envisioned their voice and so forth.

And when I started to list them out, I was just astounded how many different people they meet.

I, you know, I'm like, yeah, there's eight or ten.

Oh no, there's like, you know, 40, 50 people that, you know, all had to have unique voices and perspectives.

But I tend to listen to people a lot.

I really like to listen to what people say.

And on trail, and over the years I've backpacked, I've listened to many, many different people and just absorbed kind of who they are.

And so these characters they're meeting in the book, most of them are real.

Some of them are creations, you know.

Permi, Permi is a composite of different people I've met, but most of them are real, they're based loosely, sometimes not so loosely, on real people that I've met out in the wilderness or in other points of my life who, yeah, their stories are real.

And that was another thing I wanted to come across is why people hike a trail like this.

And everybody has a different reason.

And I wanted to weave in all those different reasons for being out there because there are many, many different reasons that people come together and do this.

And through the different characters they meet, they the reader experiences that different perspectives on what people are doing out there.

And yeah, you meet a lot of people out there, and it's really like in the book.

You meet the same people over and over as you hike, and because people are very open in the wilderness, you really get to hear their stories and what they're doing and what's going on for them.

And yeah, who else did you did you resonate with in the book?

SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.

Okay, I'll come back to and answer that, but I have to I because I'm dying to know.

And I cannot think of her name because I don't want to pronounce it wrong.

But the beautiful woman, the beautiful woman that still just falls for.

Is she based on something real?

SPEAKER_01: Yes and no.

She's mostly a fabrication, and I I don't want to be spoiling anything, but there was a person, and I I don't have permission to mention her name, although I'm sure you know she she'd be laughing if I did.

There was a person that Joey and I met off and on in all the different places that Gil meets Kaidomi.

So she is at each of those scenes based on a person we had met there.

But the character herself is very different from that person.

So the character of Kaidomi, I actually created her to be a mirror to Gil.

So Gil, of course, starts out very sexist.

He's he's very, you know, he's not the nicest of guys.

He's he's not that sensitive about women.

He's he's basically a 17-year-old who never, you know, he's 27, but he never grew up.

He's still a 17-year-old in a 27-year-old body.

And so he's treating women not very well at the beginning, anyway.

And Kaidomi, I wanted her to be a reflection of him in some ways, you know.

So her character is is designed to mirror Gill, to show Gil who he is inside and to make him think about what his relationship has been with women.

But I I we'd be giving away too much to talk about what happens between Gil and her, other than to say that it's a lot of fun.

And, you know, there are a lot of moments where, well, uh the tables really get turned on Gil.

That that's all I said.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

But no, you know, my my favorite character in the book wasn't Gil, but was Sid.

And and I'll tell you why, because the type of person that Sid is is the kind of person who I love to have the chance to talk to.

Because they are nothing but just wisdom.

And I that is by far my favorite character.

SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.

Sid, for the most part, is is based on myself.

You know, it's based on my experiences.

I mean, I I certainly haven't experienced everything Sid has, but the character that's closest to my personality is is probably Sid.

And it's part of why I put the book in Gil's perspective, because you know, I want Gil to experience everything from that novice point of view and not from a point of view of someone like a Sid, where it would be it would be too didactic.

It it needs to be more exploratory.

But yeah, no, I I I I also resonate with Sid very much.

SPEAKER_00: Well, well, that answer was going to lead into another question that was going to ask you, who were you in this book?

Because I saw you as Sid, and apparently I wasn't far off from the truth.

SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, it's a funny question because I find myself, aspects of myself in Gil when I was young.

I think you know, as as as men tend to be, I was a little bit brash and a little bit ignorant of the way the world works.

And so there was a, you know, I wasn't as bad as Gil, you know.

But I certainly see a lot of my younger self in Gil.

And I I think I channeled a lot of that energy for him and then ramped it up a bit.

But my younger self, yeah, I see a lot of that in Gill and the mistakes Gil makes, what he packs, what he brings.

I made all those mistakes.

So all that, I think anyone who backpacks will recognize, oh yeah, I did that.

Oh yeah, you know.

So all that stuff is in Gill, right?

And then, you know, for Sid, there's my older, more reflective self.

There's my more philosophical self, there's the side of me who, you know, reads Asian literature and this kind of thing, and poetry, and then, you know, what Sid's into.

And then there's some of me in Permi.

Permi is a composite, but that whole survivalist foraging thing, I went through a phase of taking classes like that.

And I still I love sustainable agriculture.

And I'm planning when I retire to grow my own food and and set it up in a way like that, like like Permi talks about.

So there's some of me in Permi too.

And and I think the three of them all capture different aspects of my personality.

And then the other characters in the book come from other people that I've I've met and encountered.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

No, I love it.

I absolutely love that.

And and and I'll be honest, when reading the book, I I kept thinking to myself, I wonder if Gil is exactly as you said, kind of a little bit of a reflection of, you know, a younger version of yourself.

So I I just I love that.

I love how you could use pieces of you to create these characters.

SPEAKER_01: Well, I think any author will tell you that.

The characters, and and if they say it's not true, I wouldn't trust their answer.

I think anytime an author writes a novel and has different characters, I there's gotta be something of the author in those characters.

You can't avoid it.

When you're sitting there at the screen and you're typing and you're channeling these people, yes, you can bring in people from your life, but even when you bring in somebody who you've met and you're creating a character, you're creating them through your experience, through your worldview.

And I think the characters in any book in some way more or less reflect the author.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, no, no doubt, no doubt.

So one thing that I was wondering about was the timeline that the book follows, with almost like each chapter representing a certain time frame of them hiking the trail.

Is that the same time frame that it actually took you to hike the JMT?

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

And I mentioned this in the back in the acknowledgments.

The schedule, the days, the 28 days they take are exactly the same itinerary that Joey and I and my wife and I followed for the trail, with I think there were two exceptions where I moved a campsite slightly because it it helped the story.

But you could follow this itinerary as a hike and do it in the same, the same way.

Yes, it's exactly the itinerary for the first time I I hiked the JMT.

SPEAKER_00: All right, all right, awesome.

And then kind of a funny question, but but something that I I have to know.

Oh, sure.

Did you make the same mistake as Gil ever and pick up that particular brand of food?

Because that was for for those who have not read the book yet, food is a big part of the book.

And and it's not always talking about how good food is.

SPEAKER_01: Right.

So for the benefit of the listeners who haven't read it, or I don't think we're giving anything away here, Gill makes the mistake of he purchases these pre-mixed meals called Backwoods Buffet.

And I had to come up with that name because you know there are brands of backpacking food out there, and I don't want anyone saying, hey, you know, suing me.

Gil is advised not to buy that brand by the saleswoman at REI, but he doesn't listen because it's on sale and it looks real convenient.

And Backwoods Buffet is based on early backpacking meals.

When I was first hiking in the 1980s, the freeze-dried food you could get was awful.

And I mean awful.

Exactly like Gil describes it.

It was horrible.

And backpacking food has evolved tremendously since then.

There are some brands now that are all organic and they use really good quality ingredients and they're very tasty.

And you know, there are a lot of other people who make their own meals now.

You know, they'll they'll dehydrate them and pack them.

And I do kind of a hybrid myself.

I have both home dehydrated meals and some of these high-end backpacking meals.

But when I started in the 80s, there was only this awful stuff.

And it was kind of a joke.

You knew the novice backpacker because they had one of these pre-packaged meals in the 80s.

And everyone who was experienced knew not to bring those meals because they were just awful.

Nowadays it's different.

I mean, nowadays some of them, as I said, are really quite good.

So it was based on that.

But also on another experience.

When I hiked the John Muir Trail, I'd done mostly short trips.

And on short trips, I had gotten these prepackaged cheese noodles from Albertsons.

And you cook them, you add a little water, and you know, their noodles and cheese.

And, you know, on a short trip, they were good, and I was very happy with them.

So I packed almost all cheese noodles for my mirror trip.

And I cannot tell you, halfway into the trip, maybe 15 days into the trip, and all I had been eating were cheese noodles, I was sick of them.

I mean, I hated cheese noodles by the end of this trip, but it's all I brought.

And just like Gil, when I got to MTR, they have this fantastic hiker box.

And for someone who doesn't know, a hiker box is like a recycling center for food and equipment where hikers who are carrying too much will leave their excess food, their excess batteries or whatever they've got.

And hikers who don't have enough can pick this up and put it in their pack.

And just like Gil, when I got to MTR and they had this fantastic hiker box, I took every one of my cheese noodles, threw them in there, and took other food.

And for that stretch of the hike, I was in heaven.

I was eating good food.

And then when my wife came in and met me, I was back to cheese noodles again.

I was dreaming of that BLT in Red's Meadow.

That was me.

That's all based on my experience on that trip.

And since then, I have brought much better food on long-distance hikes.

But that experience Gil has with the food is very much based on my own experiences over the years.

And yeah, there are some brands you can get that are still like that.

But fortunately, most of them have improved.

SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm so thankful I asked you that question because in your answer, I was like, oh my gosh, he is Gil.

Because literally the way that you just told me about your experience, I'm like, that's exactly how it is, how Gil talks about those meals.

SPEAKER_01: Oh my God.

You know, yeah.

No, I still remember the taste of those meals from the 80s.

Just the first time I bit into one.

I mean, you know, there's humor in this story.

You know, just the descriptions of Gil eating that that first meal.

And, you know, it's like realizing he's got potentially a month ahead of him of eating this food, and that's all he's got.

SPEAKER_00: And you're so right, too, about how you said that you always do like the novice hikerts because they had this, because that's how all the other characters in the book refer to Gil when they sit and they're like, oh my gosh, you got that.

SPEAKER_01: Yep, yep, yep.

And and if it were a weekend trip, no big deal.

But because it's 28 days, it's really a big mistake.

The bars, too.

Gil's bar, you know, when you're in the wilderness, lunch becomes cold bars.

Basically, there's very little you can do for lunch that fits in your bear can and that's palatable.

And so most people end up eating, you know, gow and granola bars.

And again, the bars, Gil's bars are awful.

And that was also based on a mistake I made on the Muir trip where I went to Albertson's, I found these bars that looked good.

The description sounded good, so I bought them and put them in my pack and didn't think twice about it.

And when I got on trail, I realized these are awful.

And I had to eat them day after day.

I got sick of them.

I mean, there's one time where, and Joey unfortunately had some bad bars too.

And I remember one time we were sitting there just tossing our bars, and you shouldn't really do this in the wilderness, but there was one time where we were just, we couldn't finish them, and we were just hurling, you know, what was left of these bars because, you know, they were so awful.

And, you know, I realized you have to try everything before a long hike.

It's so different from a weekend trip.

And that next winter, when I was preparing, because you start preparing during the winter, I went to, I guess it was, I went to Whole Foods, and you know how they sell all these different bars.

They're almost like in bins.

And I bought one of each.

And I took them home and I tasted them and I made a spreadsheet and I rated them, and I decided which of these bars do I like and which don't I like.

And you Know the next time I went hiking, I just took the top 10 bars from my spreadsheet.

You know, I must have tried 50 different bars, and it was so much better.

It was life-changing on a long trip.

This is why I say if you're a beginner, don't start on a long hike because you're going to make these mistakes.

Start with some weekend trips and figure out what works for you.

So, you know, I mean, I had plenty of experience, but I just I had never packed for one of these, you know, month-long journeys.

And it's different eating the same meal for a couple of days and eating the same meal for a month.

It's really, really different.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.

But, you know, and what what I think is so cool about this is it brings us back to what we talked about earlier, is the really awesome thing about this book is how it can do so much different things for a person reading and the person that it's made for.

Because inside of the humor, the the more like total, you know, true life, you know, transforming talks that that the two main characters have, there's also real life practical advice for anybody looking at going backpacking for the first time, where you literally just pay attention to Gil and you do everything that he he doesn't, you know?

SPEAKER_01: And yeah, exactly.

You copy Sid, you don't copy Gil.

SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly.

And and so that's what I just I totally love about this book.

And I think to myself, like if anything could come out of this in in terms of of hiking the sport, guide books need to be written in this type of format.

Because nobody nobody wants to read the guidebook.

But if you give them a little short story with Gil and Sid, and it tells them what to do, what not to do, that's ideal.

SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, I I I never thought about that.

But that's that is really true.

I mean, I think after this book, people have will have a very good sense of what to bring and what not to bring for a backpacking trip.

So yeah, there you you've hit on something that I maybe not intentional, but I I I think it's great.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Now, what one thing that I was curious about is have any of your students read your book?

SPEAKER_01: Not that I know of.

Not that you know of it.

It's only been out since November.

Okay.

And I do have students who backpack, but I have not had anyone say to me, hey, you know, I I just I just read your book.

That may change over time because the book has been getting a lot of attention lately.

I've been invited like like on this to podcasts.

And just recently, I I don't know if you know Chris Townsend, but he's an outdoors writer.

He's got about 25 books, and he's in the U.K.

He's an editor for the Great Outdoors Magazine, which is the U.K.'s equivalent of outside magazine in in the United States.

It's the number one outdoor enthusiast publication there.

And he just listed the trail as one of his top 15 outdoors and nature books of 2021.

So that was huge.

Yeah, that that was that was a big deal.

So and I I was honored.

I I was really honored.

So I think the book is starting to get quite a bit of attention with the audiobook out, that reaches another whole range of people who prefer to listen to their books rather than rather than to read.

So it's and actually I I love the audiobook.

Like you said, it adds it adds a dimension.

So I I think I think over time, yes, I I will probably have students who say, yeah, I I read your book, but it hasn't happened yet.

Okay.

It's just a matter of time.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

Well, well, the the reason I ask is because when when I talked to you earlier about that kind of like ideal reader, and and I am 100% believe that it is a very wide variety of people would would thoroughly enjoy this book because of the fact that it explores so many different topics, but done so in a very entertaining way.

But I couldn't help but think to myself, I and maybe it's because of the main character, you know, Gil, but I thought to myself, like, I see college students, college students who are into hiking.

And so I pictured this being a perfect book for them.

SPEAKER_01: I think so.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Awesome.

I want to throw out a caution here that the book does have mature themes and strong language.

And so it's not a book that I would give to a young child unless it was a very mature young child.

I I I would screen it first as a parent.

It's it's an adult trade book.

It's intended for 18 and up.

So I I just I don't want anyone listening to this to hand it to their nine-year-old.

I don't think that would be appropriate.

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_00: No, no, probably not.

Probably not.

That's what we'll we'll stick with college age.

College-age children.

But uh, well, sure.

SPEAKER_01: For college age, absolutely.

Absolutely.

Some of Gill's transformation I wrote intentionally to share to young men and to say, hey, look, let's show a little more respect to women.

Let's I had this insidious purpose in a sense that some woman who's dating a guy who's a little insensitive could hand him this book and say, hey, read this.

This is a great read.

And underneath it is this message of transformation and respect that she could get across without directly telling the guy.

So so there there was that too.

That was a message I wanted I wanted to get in the book.

I I don't know if that came across to you or not.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, no, it did 100%.

Because I I will say just Gill as an overall person, he grows up by the end of this book.

By the end of this trail, you see goes through so many changes.

You do.

You see it in transformations on so many different levels.

And I just I love it.

And I feel like it, you know, again, it goes back to the theme of this book, what it was built on was hiking, hiking this month-long trail that is going to, it's more than just, you know, something, you know, exercise.

It's especially, I feel, would done from the perspective of these two characters, it truly provides a pure transformational experience.

SPEAKER_01: Well, it there's one thing I'm not sure you would know.

As a blind reader, I'm not sure you have a way to see the artwork in the book or the cover.

But I did want to share with your listeners that this is an illustrated book that Jeremy Ashcroft of the United Kingdom, who's a well-known mountain illustrator, I contacted him and he did uh black and white drawings of some of the scenery in the book and of daily maps in kind of a 3D version, you know, a simple version that people can see.

And I did this very intentionally because when I was a kid, I used to read books like Treasure Island, which had these maps in them and these drawings, you know, and I was fascinated by them.

I would stare at the map and look at places like Skull Island and where they buried the treasure and think about the boat journey that the characters had taken or, you know, or whatever, or that sketch of Long John Silver with the pirate and the bird on his shoulder, the parrot and everything.

And I just loved that.

And our books now just don't have that.

So very consciously, I wanted this to be illustrated so that people who hadn't been there could see things like the Muir Hut or Evolution Valley, you know, in this kind of black and white sketch form and see the maps.

So it's an illustrated book.

And the cover design is also by a well-known artist, Faith Rum, who is a local Yosemite artist.

She used to be a wilderness ranger.

She also was captivated by her experiences on the Muir Trail, and now has an entire gallery of artwork from the John Muir Trail.

And she created a drawing of Muir Pass where there's this iconic stone muir hut, which is this iconic building on the John Muir Trail, and they they stopped there.

It's a very important scene in the book.

And so there, the two characters are in silhouette.

They're Sid is standing and Gil is sitting on this ledge looking up at the trail that winds up towards the Muir Hut and the surrounding peaks.

And so that's the cover that Faith created for the book.

And I would imagine there's no way for you to see the illustrations or the cover, or is there some software or something that that that lets you visualize that?

SPEAKER_00: This is what I'll tell you is we have talked so much about the audiobook that I believe these beautiful illustrations, which I must say, I think is a really awesome, awesome way to do this book.

I feel like that that further just emphasizes the story.

But for myself, I sit there and go, oh, good.

Those sighted people who prefer to read a book, they get to have something cool too.

I get the amazing audio book that's like a movie, they get some pictures and drawings to further emphasize the story.

So, so no, for myself, no way for me to do it, but I don't need to because I got the audiobook.

We'll give them the beautiful cover and the drawings.

Well, and see, that's the thing.

SPEAKER_01: I mean, I couldn't have a drawing for every vista.

So for a couple of spots, there are drawings for some very iconic scenery.

But otherwise, I had to use words.

And I can't tell you how challenging that was.

You know, we got a Kirkis review of the book where they just raved about the descriptions of the mountains and the natural scenery, and it blew me away because as an author, that was what I struggled with most.

You know, you walk into a place like Thousand Island Lake or Evolution Valley, and visually it is stunning.

It is so amazing.

And like you say, you feel the space, you feel the distance, you feel the cold granite peaks, you smell the trees.

And, you know, you can almost taste the water in the air.

And when you're standing in a place like this, there's this sense of awe.

And I wanted to capture that with words.

And I just found it so difficult to describe how I felt standing in these spots.

And I read a lot of John Muir, and I think I channeled some of his language because he's probably the best at doing it, certainly better than I am.

And I tried my best to describe it, but I always felt it had fallen short.

And so when I'm getting these reviews of people who say his descriptions are amazing, I'm just floored because as the author, I felt like if anything, that's what fell short of the moment of standing there.

So I'm just so happy that came across to people because that's as a writer, what I struggled with most in this book.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.

No, no, no.

I mean, I can totally get that because it's it's very difficult for something so when you experience something so magnificent firsthand, it never, you never feel as though it does it justice because you saw it firsthand.

You you felt it.

You know, you know what I mean?

You were there, you lived it.

And it's kind of like when when people when when you're somewhere and you take pictures, the pictures, they never do it justice.

But for the person who wasn't there, that's all they have to go off of.

You know what I mean?

And so it's amazing.

And and but no, I mean, for for myself, I mean, not only is the guy who who read, who did the audiobook amazing, but he's reading the words that you wrote.

And so I think you did an amazing job throughout the entire book with making it very descriptive to the point that, as I said, you feel as though you are truly there.

I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01: And I I love when people say that.

And and particularly coming from you who can't see through the eyes, that's really moving for me because I wanted to capture that.

And man, it it is hard to put some things into words.

It's really, really hard.

If I was able to capture even a quarter of the feeling of being up there in the mountains, then I'm just gratified that I was able to.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

Well, I want to thank you so much.

The one thing that I want people to come away with listening to today's podcast episode is that if you haven't already read this book, you need to go read the book.

I'm telling you, it is that good.

It is that awesome.

And I just sincerely thank you for for giving me the opportunity to get to talk with the guy who who wrote this book, who created this book.

I have so many more questions that if it wasn't like, whoa, whoa, whoa, spoiler alert, I would be asking you more, and I would be begging for a sequel, and I'd be wanting to know what happens as if these people were real.

And that's what makes a book amazing, is when at the end of it, you're sad.

You've built a relationship with them.

You want to know, well, well, what's happened?

Where are they?

What's going on?

And that's that's a good book.

And you've written a really amazing book.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kevin.

I I I really appreciate that.

And I'm I'm really glad it it touched you in that way.

SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.

So now please tell those listening today where can they find the trail?

SPEAKER_01: Oh, sure, sure.

So for the audiobook, it is on audible.com.

It's also on iTunes, so I think the two biggest sites for audiobooks.

For the print book, you can get it in in hardcover, you can get it in ebook, and I'm told on March 1st, the paperback will be out.

You can get that in well, you can get it on Amazon, of course, or you can get it at your local bookstore.

It should be available at any bookstore.

If they don't have the trail by me, Ethan Galogly, in stock, just simply say, I'd like to request it.

It's distributed through Ingram Books, and any bookstore can order it.

Ingram's probably the largest distributor of books in America or the world.

I I don't know about the world, but you know, they're they're one of the major distributors, so any bookstore can order it for you, and that that way you're supporting your local bookstore.

But it it's available at all the major online and and and other retailers.

So very, very easy to get a copy.

SPEAKER_00: Well, wonderful.

Well, I certainly hope that those listening today definitely do indeed read this book.

And I was just sitting here thinking to myself, what I believe should be done is if you're somebody listening today and you're like, man, I would love to hike that for myself.

Well, you need to do that when you're ready.

But pick up a copy of the book, the physical copy, take it with you along your hike.

You can add it to your pack.

If you gotta get rid of something else to lighten the load, take the book with you and follow along in person along the trail.

And I think that would be the just ultimate way of reading this book.

If you want to, you know, make a book that's uh fully uh, you know, like uh 4D or whatever it would be.

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm I'm I'm just waiting for somebody at the end of this summer to email me and say, hey, I brought your book and I read it day by day and I followed your itinerary.

And yeah, it really was like that.

I'm you know, I'm waiting for that.

And I I I suspect by the end of this summer somebody's gonna say that.

I I hope.

I hope.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Well, awesome.

Well, well, Ethan, again, thank you so much for your time today.

Thank you so much for for getting to share a little bit about your story and then a whole lot about the story of the trail with with me and my audience.

It it's truly been a pleasure to thank you.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kevin.

I really enjoyed talking with you.

I really appreciate being here on your podcast.

And I really enjoyed your questions.

I I think they're great, and I'm really glad you enjoyed the book.

SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, wonderful.

Well, thank you.

And for you listening today, I hope that you have enjoyed yet another absolutely incredible guest here on the podcast.

And, you know, as always, I hope that the podcast has in some way been able to inspire you, motivate you, and empower you to get out and take on the day, no matter what obstacles may be standing in the way.

And that's the lowdown with Kevin Lowe.

I hope today's episode inspired you, motivated you, and excited you to get out and enjoy life, no matter what obstacles may be standing in the way.