How to Transform Your Life with Faith, Love, & Christian Music

The topic is still relevant, the guest is still amazing.

This is my interview with John Chisholm, a guy who's going to blow you away.

So don't think of this as a rerun, think of it as a reboot.

Because this is my interview with John Chisholm.

Enjoy, and more importantly, I wish you an amazing holiday season ahead.

Enjoy the time.

Eat some candy case.

Drink some hot chocolate.

Soak it all in, my friend.

Because, well, that's what life is all about.

I hope you enjoyed today's episode with John Chisel.

What's up, my friend, and welcome to Grit Grace Inspiration.

I'm your host, Kevin Lowe.

Twenty years ago, I awoke from a life-saving surgery only to find that I was left completely blind.

And since that day, I've learned a lot about life, a lot about living, and a lot about myself.

And here on this podcast, I want to share this insight with you.

Because, friend, if you are still searching for your purpose, still trying to understand why, or still left searching for that next right path to take, well, consider this to be your stepping stone to get you from where you are to where you want to be.

John Chism, a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

SPEAKER_00: Kevin Lowe wouldn't be anywhere else but right here with you.

SPEAKER_02: But before we get to what's happening in life today, I would love just to understand a little bit more about you, where you've come from, what got you into the music business.

And so if you wouldn't mind just kind of taking me back a little bit and you know, just kind of walking through things.

SPEAKER_00: I'm happy to do that.

And, you know, one of my tendencies is to overshare.

So I think that's kind of good in some ways, but I can get really granular.

So I'm going to try to give you the highlights, if that's okay, Kev, and try not to make it too boring for people.

But I realized just this week that I came to Nashville 39 years ago.

So I think that means I'm old or something.

But you know, I I had come to Christ at as an 18-year-old and I had a drug sex and rock and roll, just a wild child kind of life.

And the first thing I wanted to do was to share it with the world, but I didn't know what that meant, how to do it.

I dreamed of getting a song recorded someday and just was clueless, had no idea.

Fast forward about 10 years, I had the opportunity to come here and go to work for a church.

So moved here.

Long story short, it didn't work out.

And my wife, now of 42 years, not that she's 42 years old, but we've been married 42 years.

We had$40 and no place to live.

And I just didn't know what we were going to do.

I wound up getting a paper route, making 60 bucks a week.

She got a little job making probably 20 bucks a week.

We were poor.

We were just poor.

And we were homeless for a brief season before that was even a thing.

I don't know what they called them before we could started calling them homeless, but we were that.

And, you know, we we wound up not living in a pasteboard box under the overpass, but you know, we it was not a fun situation.

And in the first few months of living here, I wound up meeting some important people in the music business.

And I was so dumb, you know, just sharp enough to stick in the ground and green enough to grow.

I met these people that were already well known, but I didn't know who they were.

They listened to some songs.

And Kevin, I promise God must have just shut their ears because those songs weren't any good.

But they signed me to a publishing contract.

Now, you can't do that these days.

You don't just walk into, you know, a coffee meeting and get a contract unless you're like already something really big, right?

Well, those songs never saw the light of day, but my first year, I got about 20 songs recorded.

And again, then I got hired to be a publisher.

I didn't even know what a publisher was.

But over the next few years, I worked my way up to vice president of publishing for this company and had a great career.

Then I went to another company that was even bigger, managed over 18 songwriters, did over 200 pieces of product.

And now at this point in my life, 39 years later, I've had about 400 songs, give or take, recorded.

I've made, gosh, almost a dozen records.

I've traveled over a million miles with Delta.

I've had the blessing and the privilege of singing and teaching and doing all kinds of great stuff all around the world.

And it's just been crazy.

So that's the background.

And then I currently have a company called Nashville Christian Songwriters.

And I have the privilege now of downloading all that success to aspiring Christian songwriters all over the world.

So it's been a journey, bro.

Now I can get more granular.

You will not believe how quick that version was.

SPEAKER_02: Well, well, okay.

So, I mean, what a crazy version, though, that was.

Because I mean, we went from like one spectrum all the way to another.

And so, so let's look at your life personal.

So, aside from from the music business and stuff, take me back to before you got into church and became a Christian.

You you kind of gave me a little, a little insight into life.

So take me back to that point in life.

SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, I love my mom and daddy.

They're with Jesus now, but we didn't grow up in a very religious home.

We didn't grow up in a home where we didn't go to church, we didn't talk about God, you know, and none of that.

We were a music family, my when we didn't perform together, but my mom and dad were great bluegrass musicians.

And my dad played, he did he did flat pick and guitar, he played fiddle and banjo and mandolin and bazookie and anything that had a string on it he was going to play.

And he really was kind of an audiophile.

He loved everything from flatten scrugs to Mauler symphonies.

And I grew up hearing all of that, plus, you know, all the acid rock and roll I was into, like Jethro Tull and Emerson Lake and Palmer.

This was like the 60s, right?

The late 60s, early 70s.

And so I was really just a little pothead.

And, you know, I mean, I'll just go ahead and come out about that.

And my life really revolved around just getting stoned every day and loving music and just kind of being, I was a late hippie because that was a little bit, that was probably four or five years earlier.

But I I was still considered myself a flower child.

And I kind of still do.

You can't see me, but I have a ring of uh wildflowers in my hair right now.

I just no, I don't.

I'm teasing you.

I don't.

SPEAKER_02: You okay.

I was like, wow, that's not at all what I pictured this guy looking like.

SPEAKER_00: Oh man, that was bad.

I'm sorry.

No, actually, I couldn't think of those little clover things that we used to braid together as kids.

You remember those little things?

But anyway, no, but I was a hippie, I was just a little flower child pothead kid, and I wound up going on a youth trip with a church.

Now I remember I wasn't in church, so I didn't really know what church was, but I was a singer.

I had gotten into high school choir, and the choir director heard a little bit of talent, and so he got me into voice lessons at the college level, and I was actually moving into what looked like an operatic career, and I was being trained to be a lyric tenor because I had a really high voice.

Of course, maybe it was because I hadn't hit puberty or something, I don't know what it was, but I sang real high.

And so I was, you know, on this track, you know, to do classical music.

But a kid that I used to get high with all the time, his name's David.

He turned out to just be a backslidden little Baptist boy, and he he got his life right with God and got the youth group praying for me and invited me to go sing on a youth trip.

And so I loved to sing and I wanted to do that.

And so I went on the trip, and the very first day, this little spirit-filled lady, a little fireball lady named Lynn, she was in her 50s, and I thought that was old.

I thought she was about at one foot in the grave.

She just got a hold of me and she said, You are going down for the third time and you need Jesus.

And so she literally dragged me, you know, into heaven, basically, and she's there now.

Hey, Lynn, we love you.

But she was she became a real spiritual mom to me and and really taught me the word and and discipled me and kind of gave me some sense about life.

And it started this 45-year ministry.

I and and I I wouldn't be here if it if it weren't for Lynn and David and that youth group praying for me.

And I I was so appreciative.

I had to marry one of the pretty little girls out of that youth group, and she stuck with me for all these years.

So yeah, so that's that's kind of it.

And life changed drastically, and stopped, you know, drugging and drinking and and carousing and doing all the the well, well, I say it like this.

I I stopped smoking and drinking and wallering in sin and just, you know, kind of came over and got a big religious addiction.

But you know, so but things definitely changed and and the my culture changed, my my friends changed, my outlook on life changed, and that's when the real trouble started.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

So so I'm curious though, because of the fact of I mean, here you were this kid who you you didn't grow up, you know, with with religion, with in the church.

And so I'm curious to know though, was there something that Lynn said, or was there a moment that it just the spirit truly came into you in in, you know what I mean?

Because because I mean, coming from the perspective of somebody who hasn't grown up in the church and they aren't a believer it's you know, let's face it, it can sound like a uh, you know, a far-fetched story.

SPEAKER_00: You know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: And so I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_00: You know, and I think that's a great question.

And yes, the answer is yes.

And I know that my parents loved me.

You know, we had our problems.

We were the diss and the dysfunctional, you know, I guess.

We we weren't the funk and the dysfunctional, but we were we were daily the diss.

And so we had gosh, I mean, I was just wild, you know.

I mean, I really was acting out all kinds of emotional stuff, you know.

Usually you are if you're if you're drinking and drugging and doing all that kind of stuff.

There's you know, there's other things kind of underlying that, even if you don't know what they are.

And I think for me, I was looking for love.

I was looking for a sense of belonging in a way that I didn't have, right?

I mean, uh, and so when Lynn sat me down on that trip and just said, you know, you you need to know the love of Jesus.

And and I I can't explain it because it's not something you can explain.

It's like you just have to kind of feel it, I guess.

But there was this moment that I felt like I was kind of immersed in this golden kind of love, and it was like I felt loved for the first time.

I felt like somebody saw me.

I felt like everything that was empty inside me was getting filled up somehow, and I couldn't explain it, but I knew that it was real, and now 45 years later, it's just as real.

It's changed.

The way I I kind of practice my faith is very, very different than it ever has been.

It's broader.

I I'm definitely consider myself a global Christian, someone who is a follower of a of Christ, but definitely very in not just tolerant, but inclusive and and affirming of everyone's faith.

It's like if you you do you, you do your faith.

But you know, that wasn't always the case because of the culture that I I joined and kind of spent a lot of time with.

But yes, to answer your question, there was this really serious, powerful spirit uh holy moment that I'm still living in even right now.

SPEAKER_02: So now, though, this is what I'm curious about, though, is because there's a lot of us who we become a Christian.

And so as far as that goes, is we pray at dinner time and we go to church on Sunday.

You didn't just stay at that level, though.

SPEAKER_00: I did not.

I I went deep.

But you know, you have to to remember the the conversion, if you will, to put it in kind of a churchy religious word.

It was deep, you know.

I mean, this was this was like the proverbial dark delight, you know, and and I realized that I was really pretty depressed kid, you know?

And anybody that's smoking that much weed and drinking that much alcohol, and I could get pills.

We cocaine wasn't a thing back in the day.

I mean, maybe it was for rich people or or beatniks or something, but it wasn't in my crowd.

We we we didn't have that kind of money, you know.

If we came by a uh a baggie of pot, you know, a week, you know, for 15 bucks, man, we were living the high life.

So in more ways than one.

But I realized looking back, you know, and even throughout my life, you know, wrestling with different seasons of depression that were linked probably to some of the neglect and some of the disenfranchised way that we kind of grew up, you know.

I mean, dad, he worked like three jobs to pay for four kids, and mom worked, and you know, we were kind of latchkey kids in a lot of ways.

And again, not to disrespect my my dear deceased parents, but you know, it was a weird time in our culture, kind of like now, you know, where it was kind of the height of the free love kind of a hippie, you know.

I mean, we're we're talking, we're talking mid, late 60s, early 70s.

And, you know, I don't know how old you are.

I think I'm probably twice your age, probably just guessing by your voice.

But, you know, it's like that was a real pivotal time in our culture.

And so I was deep, deep, deep into that kind of experience.

And then Christ, Jesus, I didn't even know who he was.

I didn't even know we didn't say that name, right?

So when I experienced something deep and profound, it was radical for me.

And the and I have to tell you, after all these years, 40 something years of traveling through religion, some of it amazing, some of it horrible, I've come back to love.

I've come back to the simplicity of what it means to recognize that that God, whatever you call him, her, it, whatever that force is, it is benevolent and is love.

That's what I've come back to after this long journey through many different facets of the Christian religion.

And and I'm can can I just be straight up and transparent with you and your listeners here?

Of course.

Do I have your permission?

SPEAKER_02: You do.

SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of at, I don't know if I'm at the tail end, but I'm definitely coming out of a long season where my faith has pretty much been deconstructed.

I've gone through six years of just having it all kind of torn down and put back together.

And I think the simplest way that I can say it is that I've I've come back to that bedrock.

And I'm so glad you asked me about that moment.

I believe more in that moment than anything else.

I believe in that moment that I felt what I would just have to say was more of a supernatural love that made me feel warm, home, comfort, safe, belonging and accepted just as I was right in that moment.

Does that resonate?

Oh, does that make any sense?

SPEAKER_02: Yes.

Oh, it does 100%.

And and if if I'm following, you know, with what you're saying, it falls in line with with so much of my own line of thinking, is that I feel like sometimes when it comes to God and it comes to faith and religion, I feel like us as humans, we we make it too complex.

SPEAKER_00: Hello.

SPEAKER_02: And we try to break it all down and we try to separate us off into our, you know, individual denominations.

And we have, you know, the the the Baptists and you have the Catholics and you have this and you have that.

And and I have to think, I don't think that's what God meant for it to be.

SPEAKER_00: I think God meant for it to be love and for us to love and accept one another.

And I agree.

And I I've been on the other side of that nine-pound Bible, you know, thumping it hard and and trying to trying to get people to change into what I thought they ought to be, you know, that fit my particular brand of Christianity in that moment.

And I'm not that, bro.

I am not that anymore.

So, you know, and and that's a dangerous place to be in some ways because I do have a very strong evangelical following, people that have loved my worship recordings and all that.

And I stand by those.

I I still believe in worshiping a God of love.

It's just not the same brand of you're in, you're out, you're going to heaven, you're going to hell, or I'm right, you're wrong.

It's like I've just laid all that down.

That's up to God now.

And I'm I'm not the sheriff of the kingdom of God anymore.

I I have resigned that position forever.

SPEAKER_02: I love it.

I absolutely love it.

So, so I'm curious.

I mean, you you basically start this new life as a Christian, and and you, and you, you know, made reference that you started, obviously, you you've traveled all over the world, you've done all this.

And so, how does that kind of combine with with music to where you are today?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's a great question.

And like I said, I was I was raised in a very musical family, and I really did not dream of a career necessarily in music because I didn't know what that even meant.

I didn't know, I didn't know how to have a career in music.

And, you know, I I grew up watching my my mom and dad just make music in the living room.

And when I experienced this dramatic supernatural love and wanted to write about it and getting involved with the local church there, I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee.

And let me give you one more little bit of background that might be interesting.

When I was in high school prior to this giant Christian conversion thing, I'd be out partying till, you know, one, two, three in the morning on Saturday night.

But I was the paid tenor at Graceland Christian Church in Memphis, Tennessee, right next to Elvis' mansion.

And so, and this was back when the king was still alive at pre-77.

And we would see his limousine actually use the church driveway to drive around back to the Graceland Mansion.

So I'd be out doping and drinking and stuff till you know, who knows uh what time of the night, and then drag my sorry carcass into that little church and sing, ring the bells, ring the bells, let the whole world know Christ is born in Bethlehem many years ago.

And I didn't know what the hell I was even singing about.

It's like, what?

You know, what is this?

What's Going on.

So, you know, I mean, so that was kind of what happened then.

But anyway, so I started writing these songs, and then I started.

I mean, the Christian music industry was very, very young, very embryonic at that time.

There was like this Jesus people movement out of Chicago and LA, more like a bunch of saved hippies, right?

And so they laid that laid down their weed for communion wine, I guess.

But um, there was a lot of music coming out of that movement.

And so little record companies were beginning to form around that.

And we were listening to these little bitty Jesus kind of choruses back in the day.

And I started wanting to write them, and and so I would.

And I was just experimenting and started singing in churches around the area.

And then I one time I did send a song up to Nashville, Tennessee to see if somebody would publish my pitiful little song.

And I got rejected, and I just swore to God I'd never do that again.

And um then when we were offered this church position 10 years later, literally I was 20, 28, I think.

I um, you know, came here, we were broke and all that was just crazy.

And then it turned into what I was sharing earlier, meeting those important people I didn't even know they were important, and getting that break, and now 400 songs later, and making records and and uh having the opportunity to travel around.

I've been in Nigeria, scam capital of the universe.

Love all my brothers and sisters there.

But I had an album come out 27 years ago called Firm Foundation, and it hit that country, a particular Pentecostal denomination there.

Love that record.

And it those songs, all like 14 songs, just went deep into the fabric of that denomination.

And they knew all my songs, they knew everything about me, more than I wanted them to know.

And they love, love, love that record.

So I've been over there, I think five or six times, but there have been times I've sung in front of, I think, I think I sang in front of about six or eight thousand people one Sunday.

And that's a small crowd for them.

I have friends who've sung in front of 300,000 people over there.

So it's just, it's just insane.

But I've had the privilege of of doing that and doing, you know, music, performance, leading worship, singing, making those records in a way that has, you know, it's just been a pretty amazing platform, to tell you the truth.

SPEAKER_02: Wow.

So I mean, that's really, really phenomenal.

I mean, you really, I mean, you know, we we we hear of the you know, the term like the overnight success story.

And I mean, obviously it was a long journey, but you really did hit it big once you did.

SPEAKER_00: I you know, I'd say comparatively, and not that you know, we're trying to compare ourselves, but I don't have a bus and a band or a helicopter pad, you know, but I have been able to write, record, uh, and place songs through this this 39-year journey that have had a global impact.

I have one song in a hymnal and I'm not even dead.

You know, I mean, if you if you get a s if you get a song in a hymnal, that means you lived about 200 years ago.

So, you know, I I think out of the thousands I've written and the 400 that have been published, I think one's gonna outlive me.

And so I think that's something to celebrate, you know?

Yeah it's like wow, you know, not everybody gets to do that.

So I think of the thousands and thousands of people who love my music in Nigeria, I think of them so fondly because it means so much to them.

And, you know, we are very privileged here in the States, even no matter what level, you know, of uh socioeconomic level we're on, we're still very, very wealthy.

And so, you know, I think of of the dear saints, my brothers and sisters in Nigeria, and I just love them and I love their enthusiasm.

I love their miracle mentality.

I just love, I just love them.

And and I I learn, I I grow, uh something in me expands every time I get to go there and other parts of the world.

I've just happened to have been there a number of times.

So I'm a minor celebrity.

I I say I'm the David Hasselhoff of Nigeria.

SPEAKER_02: I love it.

No, what what do you think it is, especially that first album?

Why do you think it had the impact that it did in Nigeria?

SPEAKER_00: They were just coming out of a military state.

They were independent, they pretty early on in their independence, right?

And so it's it's kind of a crazy thing that you'll hear all this jumping and jiving, you know, Nigerian, African, very, very rhythmic, powerful music.

And then for I'm talking about in a church service.

And then for the offertory, they'll sing, Great is thy faithfulness.

It's like, what?

It's like this British sounding hymn.

It's like, what?

You know, it's like, I mean, I I remember my jaw dropped to the floor the first time I heard that, but there's they're still, you know, just newly out from under the Commonwealth, basically, you know, uh, over the last 50 years, maybe, but there's deep, deep poverty.

There's deep hardship on a lot of uh in a lot of ways, and massive population.

They don't think in tens, they think in thousands.

Okay.

There, I'll give you one example and try to finish the answer to the question.

They have this place outside of Lagos, Nigeria, that's called the Holy Ghost Campground and it's owned by this denomination.

Every third Friday, several million people go out to this campground for an overnight Holy Ghost service.

They will have Kevin, they'll have over 2,000 in the choir.

What?

And they have these sections for the pastors.

This the pastor's section is 10,000 chairs.

I have pictures, bro.

It's crazy.

And it's just insane.

And they'll worship all night and people get all healed and raised from the dead and speak in tongues and levitate and do all kinds of crazy things.

But it's it's amazing.

And so those songs, back to your question, the songs on that record were very hope and faith-filled, very, very faith-oriented and and kind of very inspirational and stirring, but from a faith power, faith, let's believe God kind of thing.

And so because of the just the desperation in that country, it's been raped by the government.

I think that they're doing better now.

But, you know, it's a very rich company, but the finances, the resources have been siphoned off, you know, by some very, very bad people.

And so I don't know the ins and outs of all that, but I know that it's not been good.

And so it's actually pretty common for a young mother to die in childbirth.

You know, that doesn't happen here like it does over there.

And so when a young couple gets married and gets pregnant, it is, it's, it's, it can be pretty scary, you know.

And um, so one of my friends over there was working really hard to provide these home care kits for midwives and for, you know, I mean, gosh, they have it, it's just a whole different ballgame over there when it comes to health care, which is pretty much non-existent and you know, for people.

So a lot of the a lot of the Christian people over there that I'm associated with are very involved deeply in humanitarian efforts.

You know, they'll do a lot of a lot of charity, which, you know, uh that that means something very different than it does even here, but they'll do worship concerts and do a lot of things to benefit schools.

You know, most of the children's schools over there, they don't even have bathrooms.

Like if they go to the bathroom, they just go to the bathroom out in the yard.

I mean, it's like they don't have they don't have toilets, many of them, you know, and it's just it's insane.

It's insane, you know, the wealth that's there, but uh it doesn't trickle down like it does here in America.

So I know I'm kind of going a little afield of your question, but but you know, that's the reality.

And um I think that that's why those songs meant so much, because it helps helps them focus their faith on Christ in a very visceral way.

SPEAKER_02: And you know what what I I kept thinking as you're talking and sharing more and more about this, I can't help but think to myself, what an awesome example to give to somebody because it's so common that you have somebody who's not a believer, who's not a follower of Jesus, who they they look at countries like Nigeria and they say, How can there be a God when people are living in those situations?

And yet we're talking about those people who are living in that situation, and yet they are coming by the tens of thousands to hear his word.

SPEAKER_00: Millions.

Yeah.

I mean, just millions.

It's crazy.

It it is crazy, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's just it it it's fascinating.

And at the same time, I I I wonder why don't we see that here in the US?

Is it because we're we're dispersed and we already have such access to it?

We are, you know, we have churches all over, so we don't all need to go to one central spot when it's happening.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Well, you know what?

I think it's because we don't feel we need it.

You know, I mean, I think some of the answer, not all, but some is like the the way it's been presented has been so politicized.

It's become kind of a circus and a sideshow, and it's just been kind of ridiculous.

But, you know, back like when uh Hurricane Katrina hit, well, guess who started going to church?

A whole bunch of people started going to church.

When 9-11 happened so many years ago, you know, guess when the biggest Sundays on record for church attendance were, you know, and we we we couldn't go to church during COVID, but we probably would have, right?

Even people that that would not call themselves religious or or Christian at all, you know, it it just it it winds up becoming that desperation, like, okay, wait a minute, wait a minute.

Okay, these Christian people have been talking about God for a long time.

Maybe there's something to it.

Oh my God, I'm dangling over hell with a thread.

I better, oh wait, the walls are crashing in.

Oh my God, the sky's falling.

I better go to church.

You know, it's just it's it's the same kind of phenomenon that when people who did not necessarily grow up in church, you know, have a child, and then suddenly there's some kind of interest.

Like, well, maybe we need to take this little boy to Sunday school because he might grow up to be an ex-murderer.

It's like kind of like insurance, right?

And so we kind of use God.

I mean, we were joking earlier about, you know, the genie, but we kind of treat him like a Jesus genie, you know?

And we think that, you know, go throw a couple of coins in the offering plate or or something, and then he's obligated to do something nice for us.

But it's whack.

You know, I mean, I don't consider myself a religious person anymore.

I know that I've I have spent the majority of my life in this thing.

I never really thought of myself as as religious, but there's a lot of that that kind of rubs off.

And the worst part of it, and and I'm gonna just call myself out here, the worst part of it is that judgmentalism that comes with saying who's in, who's out, who's saved, who's not, who's going to heaven, who's going to hell, you know, whose sin is worse than whose other sin, you know.

And it's like, that's that's just none of my damn business.

That's up to God, you know.

And I, if I'm doing a good job as a Christ follower, that means when you talk to me or you're in my presence, you feel loved.

If you don't feel loved, something's wrong.

And there have been plenty of times I I probably have not dished out the love that I could have or should have.

And, you know, and I repent.

Sorry, everybody, if you're listening and there was a moment you didn't feel love for me, my bad.

I'm sorry.

And let's just get back to the love.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I absolutely love it.

Absolutely love it.

So now circling kind of back around to tying back in with music is one thing that I'm curious to ask you about is when we talk about something is what I would call kind of cutthroat, the music industry.

We're talking about Nashville, the the heart of country music, all of this.

How does that work?

How is that like being though in the Christian music realm?

SPEAKER_00: We're all a bunch of saints, bro.

SPEAKER_02: Everything's just fine.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

Well, okay, so watch your email because I'm gonna I'm gonna send over my standard rich and famous contract, and all you have to do is send me a thousand bucks and uh make you rich and famous.

You know, that's a that's a pretty broad question, you know, and I know that there are plenty of uh skeletons in people's closets and you know, things that I've heard of that have not been really great, you know.

It it's rare that I've heard people being outright ripped off, you know, where uh where where you've paid money or, you know, and and got scammed.

I know that does happen, you know.

I've never really been around that or close to it.

So it's really difficult for me to pull an example out of my head right now to say, oh yeah, gee, that happens all the time.

It's more likely that someone gets their hopes up, or a record company or publisher gets involved with somebody hoping that they can help make something big out of their career.

And then it doesn't happen.

Record companies and publishing contracts are notoriously weighted toward the benefit of the company because they're trying to recoup and profit from working with this artist or songwriter.

And so there's a lot of disappointed people for sure, you know, out there because their deal didn't go the way they hoped.

And it's the tiniest percentage of people that become the Luke Bryans or the Blake Sheltons, you know, of the world.

For every one of those, there are a million others who are trying or who have tried, you know, to be that.

And that's a very tiny little window when it comes to the commercial music industry.

And same in the Christian music industry.

I mean, if you're familiar with Lauren Daigle, you know, she was kind of a meteoric star pretty quickly, but there was a lot behind that.

There are some other examples of people that are they're seem to be hitting big in a in a pretty, you know, when a viral, pretty viral way.

And that's a huge part of it these days, is what's happening on social and how much how how often are you on TikTok shaking what your mama give you, you know, just to try to get some likes and shares.

It's like, you know, that's all going on.

But, you know, dude, I stay away from all that stuff.

That's that's not my hang, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02: Yep.

SPEAKER_00: I'm a coach and I am a really nice Southern guy.

I'm so Southern, man.

I got grits for brains.

And so I, you know, I'm just I'm just trying to help people.

And my lane is to help people write the best songs that they possibly can.

And the the beautiful and brilliant and loving people that help me learn, I stand on their shoulders, and it's my season, you know, to help other people learn.

I'm doing this really cool uh show on, I don't know when your show is going to air, but I'm getting ready to do an evening with John Chisholm and friends at a historic theater here in Franklin with a worship leader named Don Mowen.

Don has released dozens and dozens of albums, and he's got nine million Facebook followers.

I hate him.

Nine million.

Can you believe that?

Nine million.

And so he's gonna be on the show, and a young centricity artist, that's a record label that Lauren Daigle is on, and some other people, uh, a guy named Kobe James is gonna be with me.

And so I'm recording five new songs to kind of premiere at that program, and it's all to benefit a children's literacy organization called Hands Across the Sea.

My wife and I support that.

And so anyway, all that to say, I'm writing, I'm still writing.

I haven't performed in about seven years.

So this is kind of my big, you know, hey, can the old guy still yodel, you know, test?

But uh so it's fun.

I'm doing some fun things, but all that to say, I don't consider myself in the music business.

I'm in the coaching business, but I coach, uh I have kind of a dual thrust.

Okay, so I'm with my Nashville Christian songwriters company, I'm coaching Christian songwriters to be the best that they can be.

And we have programs all the way up to premium coaching experiences where we help people get established as artists.

That's our whole artist development program and on down.

But I'm also at this point, Kevin, trying to really trying to take everything I've learned in coaching songwriters for 40 years now to a personal empowerment coaching program where I'm coaching non-songwriters.

So I don't, again, you know, you were asking about the music business, and I'm kind of parlaying that into, you know, what I'm really passionate about.

And that is really trying to see people step into their greatest expressions of themselves, whether they're songwriters or singers or business people, or uh, so I'm a coach at heart, if that makes any sense.

So I don't pay attention to a lot of the ups and downs of the actual music business, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it does 100%.

So, so I'm curious, how did you go from a transition of a performer to writing songs and then working with with other artists, you know, as a coach?

I I'm curious how that came about.

SPEAKER_00: You know, I know your show is really about people that have overcome, you know, great obstacles to do some cool things, right?

So my most recent uh reincarnation of myself, you know, I mean, I I'm a Christian, but I I believe in reincarnation because I've had to reinvent myself about 12 times just to just to live, right?

SPEAKER_02: More lives than a cat.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'll tell you, I'll I'm I'm way beyond nine.

Let me tell you.

So I was at a situation with an organization that I thought I would ride till Jesus came the third time.

I mean, I just really thought I was going to be there till the end of the world.

And it ended about seven years ago, the end of 2014.

And I loved it.

I loved the people I was working with, and it came to kind of an end for some reasons, and I was devastated.

And I actually went into a severe situational depression, and I didn't know what I was going to do, and it was almost like 1983 when I came to Nashville for the first time and we had$40 and no place to live.

I don't know that deja vu is a biblical concept, but we were reliving 1983 all over, and I couldn't seem to find a reasonable job.

I was going broke and getting fat and both of those really quick.

And I found myself in a deep, deep depression, even to the point of apathy.

And I I used to think that apathy meant you didn't care.

And I know now from having experienced it, it means you're so low.

No pun with your name, Kevin Lowe, low down.

You get so low that you can't care.

And I moved into I I was never like totally suicidal, but there was a lot of ideation going on.

Couldn't think straight.

I was in this place of shame.

I I felt like I had really lost my dignity because of losing the situation.

I felt like I mean there was something beyond anger and depression.

It was, it was a deep, deep, deep, deep sense of dishonor and rejection and and and I don't I can't even describe it.

And I won't go into the particulars because I just love the people and I don't want anybody to feel like I'm disrespecting them.

And I caused a lot of it myself.

And so I had no income.

I didn't know what I was gonna do.

I was 58 years old.

And I went through months of this horrible, deep, dark night of the soul.

So I wound up meeting with a business coach for about six or seven months.

And every Tuesday at one o'clock, he'd sit across the table from me and ask me what I was gonna do.

And I didn't know what I was gonna do.

I I didn't know.

I didn't have a plan, didn't couldn't even think of a plan.

And he would just ream me out.

He would just tell me I was being stupid and foolish and selfish for not sharing my then 33, four, five-ish years of publishing and songwriting.

He's like, you're just you're not even being a good person, you know?

And so eventually that started taking hold, and I had I had to just choose, am I going to do something or am I just gonna go ahead and die?

What am I gonna do?

Am I gonna am I gonna get to the point where people have to take care of me because I'm I've become an emotional vegetable here?

And so a little bit at a time, I really started steeping myself in motivational books and teaching.

And it wasn't religious in any kind of way, but you know, people like Tony Robbins, people like Lisa Nichols, who is an amazing speaker and and success story.

And I started kind of getting a little better and then wound up having an inspiration to start a company called Nashville Christian Songwriters.

And that's where the learning began.

First of all, I I when I when I decided to even look up a URL, I never dreamed that that name would be available, and it was, and I bought it for$13.99.

And now seven years later, we've had a global impact and are just going stronger than ever.

So, what was your original question?

I've rambled so far away, I don't even know what you're what I'm talking about.

What what was the original question?

SPEAKER_02: The original question, I believe.

Now, no, I mean, okay, well, first and foremost, whatever you've just told me has left me more enthralled than whatever I could have asked.

But I I I believe I believe we were we were getting around to where you brought us, and that was how you came to go from performer to songwriter and now coach.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Thank you.

Well, the truth is from the first from '84, when I met the important people in the business I was telling you about, and I got songs placed and became a publisher and worked my way up to VP, I was learning how to coach songwriters then.

And so over these 30 plus years, I've perfected my techniques to the point where I use it in my relationships, I use it in just coaching people that aren't songwriters and the people that, you know, look to me for counsel and advice.

I use the same kind of questions and techniques to coach them into what I call just a place of empowerment.

And I consider myself, whether it's with a songwriter or a layperson, you know, I consider myself a self-empowerment coach.

And when when I now back during the last seven years, what's really won for me with Nashville Christian songwriters and now with my own empowerment coaching business is that that ability to discover where someone is feeling limited, and then finding the ways to give them the courage to step beyond those limitations.

And I really think that's creativity, right?

And resourcefulness, because I've had, as we were joking a while ago, I've had to reinvent myself over and over and over until the until learn how to be resourceful.

And I was describing that low, low point of apathy.

What I lost during that time was the ability to resource myself creatively.

And once I started listening to those people like Tony Robbins and Lisa Nichols and uh Bob Proctor and on and on down the list, I started re-envisioning myself.

And I also regained my sense of resourcefulness and creativity.

And that's what brought me out of the funk.

That's what gave me the ability to start this company and grow it to six figures and beyond, and to be able to really, I mean, for a small company to last even a year is incredible.

To last seven years is almost unheard of.

So I attribute that to that sense of resourcefulness and creativity.

It's beyond, hey, I believe in myself.

It's not even that.

It's more like, oh crap, we don't have enough money to make it through the month.

What am I going to do?

You know, it's more about resourcefulness than it is about I'm so freaking brilliant and I can just come up with these creative ideas.

Does that resonate?

Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

Oh, 100%.

And and and I can't help but think, though, that it goes back to what we talked about earlier is love.

Yes, sir.

Is your love for the music, love for helping people to reach their highest and best self?

SPEAKER_00: That's it, isn't it?

I mean, that really is it.

Yeah.

You know?

And I receive so much more than I could ever give when I see somebody step up.

And we've got a couple of Grammy nominees in our community that I've coached.

And of course, I would never take credit, full credit, but I did get to be part of the team, you know?

Yes.

And um, and I've I've had people that have made albums for the first time and had singles on the radio for the first time, and they've stepped up their ministries, and really they've just stepped up to become better communicators.

And for me, it's like, yeah, you go, girl.

You go, you know, you go do that.

And that that makes me happy.

I'm kind of a proud papa in that way.

And I'm just trying to own that and say, okay, I'm freaking old, but I'm still making my music and I'm still coaching people.

So let's let's go rock this house.

SPEAKER_02: I love it.

I love it.

Now, one thing that I'm curious about in this realm of coaching, especially when we're talking about working with musicians, how do you handle the fact that the vast majority don't make it?

SPEAKER_00: I think it really is about your definition.

It comes down to your definition of what making it is.

And for me, the definition of making it is learning the principles and gathering the correct tools to write on a level that is far beyond one you could ever reach on your own.

Whether you you ever become a Grammy nominee or ever make a record or ever have anybody care about your songs.

You know, if I can help you express yourself at a higher level, I've that's success to me.

You know, and I have um I have a lot, I have a range of people.

I've just um coached a young lady who is 17.

We did an artist development program with her, and she's poised and ready to step on up as the years go.

She's only 17, right?

And so, you know, she's she's learning, but we helped set in the foundation.

And then I just finished doing the same thing with a 72-year-old Southern Gospel writer.

Wow.

And we wound up making some demos with him, and he is just beside himself because he's dreamed of this all his life and finally found the courage to try.

And his songs are they they haven't been recorded yet, but they're they are viable professional commercial songs in that genre, you know?

And so to me, that is what success is is helping people become the best they can be with given their talents and abilities.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I absolutely love it.

I love it.

John has been an incredible opportunity to meet you today, to to hear your story, to understand, you know, where you've come from, the challenges you've endured, and and yet to see where you are today, it's just it's inspiring, it's empowering, and it's a reminder that you know what, life ain't over till it's over.

You're right, right?

You know, even if you got to go through 12 of them, you know.

SPEAKER_00: I know, right?

It's like, man, do I have to do this again?

Can't this be the last one?

Oh my gosh, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, well, well, John, last question for somebody wanting to dive in deeper into you and to the music.

Where's the best place for them to go?

SPEAKER_00: Johnchishm.com would be a place I would have you start.

Now, if you are an aspiring songwriter, go to Nashville Christian Songwriters.com.

But my new site, I just launched it in March.

I have a new podcast over there called All the Best.

And Kevin, man, you'd love some of these people I've interviewed.

I've interviewed a hypnotist named John Moyer, who has like 300,000 YouTube followers.

And man, we we became BFFs.

And I told him, I said, okay, John, if you're gonna be on my show, you got to promise not to turn me into a chicken.

And uh he promised, but I listened back and at the end of it, I was clucking.

So I I don't know about that, but he was great.

And I've had some therapist, Enneagram therapist, and marriage and family therapists, and I've had some really, really fun people.

And I just can't wait.

I just interviewed today um Paul Young, who's the author of The Shack.

And so, you know, it it's just great.

So it's a broader conversation than the the songwriting conversation.

But I love both both shows.

I love that.

But I I would say go to johnchishm.com and start there.

I do have a 31-day mo devotional email series.

You can just, if you'll give me your email for 31 days, you'll get a motivational.

I call it mo devotional because it's kind of a kind of inspirational meets motivational kind of material.

It's very short, very readable, but that's my gift to you.

SPEAKER_02: So well, fantastic.

Well, I will be sure that that links are left inside of the episode show notes.

So so uh for you listening who you want to dive into all of that, just uh scroll down, click the button, and uh hop on over to John's site.

John, once again, though, sincerely thank you for being a part of the show.

SPEAKER_00: It's been so fun, Kevin.

Man, you're a great host.

I love your show.

Love being here.

And uh God bless you and all your listeners.

SPEAKER_02: Well, fantastic.

Well, thank you.

And for you listening today, I hope you've enjoyed another incredible guest here on the podcast.

As a reminder to us all, life ain't over till it's over.

So get out and live it for everything you've got.

Because what else do you have to do?

Remember, this is Grit Grace and Inspiration.

I'll see you again next week.